Official ICE Forums
Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => Topic started by: Terry K. Amthor on December 27, 2013, 02:19:06 AM
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Just curious about RM people and source material...
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The problem is my players' love of the Middle Earth setting. I have been trying to get them to try SW, but they are entrenched in the lore of ME so they have always chosen to go back there.
I always lay a few choices on the table, all of which I would like to make as a campaign and they get to vote on which they like best. Traditionally I have included one or more campaign choices for ME and at the request of one player that has been an avid SW fan, also a SW campaign idea. I also like to design my own world(s) and would love to try my hand at a new one, but I can't force my players to play something they don't like. My campaigns are designed to last many levels and span at least one or more years, so forcing them in a direction they don't like is not an option.
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I personally have my own world and only GM in it but I also do buy and read all the SW books because, well, they're well-written, interesting to read, and may provide ideas. I consider (and read) them more as legends and lores of some kind (and, well, I love reading about legends and lores of different countries and cultures) than gaming sourcebooks, though.
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The problem is my players' love of the Middle Earth setting. I have been trying to get them to try SW, but they are entrenched in the lore of ME so they have always chosen to go back there.
I always lay a few choices on the table, all of which I would like to make as a campaign and they get to vote on which they like best. Traditionally I have included one or more campaign choices for ME and at the request of one player that has been an avid SW fan, also a SW campaign idea. I also like to design my own world(s) and would love to try my hand at a new one, but I can't force my players to play something they don't like. My campaigns are designed to last many levels and span at least one or more years, so forcing them in a direction they don't like is not an option.
Well, if you're not using SW, I can hardly complain that you are in ME... :D
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As with OLF, the SW fan player (Zilverscale on these forums) and I possess between us all the books, except perhaps the newest. It has never been a problem with the concept, the style or the materials for SW, as they are excellent. I think it is the most indepth world after ME and I'm sure you will one day surpass ME, with your novels and continued writing.
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Oh and for those who don't like all the high-powered aspects, I am making an effort to do more low-level/reasonable adventures in the revisions. And of course the Emer books really needed the adventure material (what there was) overhauled and expanded!
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The problem is my players' love of the Middle Earth setting. I have been trying to get them to try SW, but they are entrenched in the lore of ME so they have always chosen to go back there.
I always lay a few choices on the table, all of which I would like to make as a campaign and they get to vote on which they like best. Traditionally I have included one or more campaign choices for ME and at the request of one player that has been an avid SW fan, also a SW campaign idea. I also like to design my own world(s) and would love to try my hand at a new one, but I can't force my players to play something they don't like. My campaigns are designed to last many levels and span at least one or more years, so forcing them in a direction they don't like is not an option.
This was how I got my players to move from ME to SW.
The One Ring was not destroyed, but passed through a dimensional rift at Mt Doom. Old Sore Head was reforming his strength. The party pursued.
Over the campaign the players learned of the Unlife. The cataclysm that rendered a hole across dimensions and into the void itself was eventually noticed by the still intact spirit of Morgoth, so long locked away from all existence and banished to the Void behind the unassailable Gate of Night (and guarded by Tulkas). The Unlife was nothing less than Morgoths will manifested, with his purpose unchanged: destruction of all life.
So the group became a small enclave of highly educated and powerful advocates of good. Eventually they would meet and ally with the Loreasters, form relations with Navigator Guilds, Kings, etc.
An adventure in that game involved discovering that the elves of SW were derived from a group of elves encountered on the higher planes by exploring Althans. They brought the bodies of the elves back. Althan scientist derived a medical gene therapy that conveyed both extreme disease resistance AND immortality. The family/corporation that developed this tech, the Kitaviiri, became the wealthiest in the empire. In addition, the alien genes allows marked improvement in the ability to manipulate esseance. In tech, science and magic, the Kitaviiri family was unmatched. A few thousand years later and they family had become the ruling elite, with the Emperor picked from their bloodline.
Sweetness but I could write all day. Let me just say thanks Terry and Old ICE for the inspiration to dream BIG.
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The problem is my players' love of the Middle Earth setting. I have been trying to get them to try SW, but they are entrenched in the lore of ME so they have always chosen to go back there.
This was how I got my players to move from ME to SW.
The One Ring was not destroyed, but passed through a dimensional rift at Mt Doom. Old Sore Head was reforming his strength. The party pursued.
Over the campaign the players learned of the Unlife. The cataclysm that rendered a hole across dimensions and into the void itself was eventually noticed by the still intact spirit of Morgoth, so long locked away from all existence and banished to the Void behind the unassailable Gate of Night (and guarded by Tulkas). The Unlife was nothing less than Morgoths will manifested, with his purpose unchanged: destruction of all life.
So the group became a small enclave of highly educated and powerful advocates of good. Eventually they would meet and ally with the Loreasters, form relations with Navigator Guilds, Kings, etc.
An adventure in that game involved discovering that the elves of SW were derived from a group of elves encountered on the higher planes by exploring Althans. They brought the bodies of the elves back. Althan scientist derived a medical gene therapy that conveyed both extreme disease resistance AND immortality. The family/corporation that developed this tech, the Kitaviiri, became the wealthiest in the empire. In addition, the alien genes allows marked improvement in the ability to manipulate esseance. In tech, science and magic, the Kitaviiri family was unmatched. A few thousand years later and they family had become the ruling elite, with the Emperor picked from their bloodline.
Sweetness but I could write all day. Let me just say thanks Terry and Old ICE for the inspiration to dream BIG.
One last note: SW is a great setting for low power games if the GM keeps the scope small. I ran a low level adventure group centered around Strone and its boy Katra. Was more court intrigue and dealing with raiders, ogre bands, etc with very little magic. I myself see most of SW people living their lives without seeing anything more flashy than low level cleric type magic.
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I've been more interested in "real life" settings, that is, settings based on an aspect of the real world mingled with a degree of magic ever since I bought The World the Romans Knew as a teenager, and devising a 1st edition AD&D game set in an alternate, 1st Century BC Earth.
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The only 'pre-fab' setting I'd ever consider using is Middle Earth. Aside from that it's my own with all kinds of stuff stolen from other settings... yours included. ;)
Most the stuff I steal is maps of villages, towns, cities, structures and details about them. So the city of Eidolon would be a perfect example. I also pull ideas out of the settings. Again, the Navigators kinda sparked one of the ideas in my world. Kind of a cross between Navigators and the Stargate.
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With all the mentions of Shadow World and Middle Earth in that thread now it might be time to point towards Andraax's rambling in LOME 2 ( or is it 1 )... Or puny things like Mur Fostisyr appearing on the Middle Earth Map. ::)
Compared to the others I didn't have any problem with my players, we were down to You're in Lorien, what do you do ? as opening phrase for your gaming sessions in Middle Earth. ( most of the characters were Elves ) .
So when Shadow World everybody agreed to move along. The nice thing with Shadow World Books is that there's a campaign hiding behind every phrase.
So we have been using Shadow World since then... We use it as a framework ( basically the events, the big players, the geography, the whole background ) but we create our own adventures.
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the main thing I find is its too High Fantasy. (not that there's anything wrong with that, just not my taste)
having said that though I have never actually taken the time to read it so It may well be pure ignorance that is preventing me using it :P
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I have a lot of shadow world material, and really want to run something there, sometime. However my players really enjoy my own setting and, well - we're kind of stuck. On the inspiration side, however, shadow world has contributed at least as much as ME. I might just do what yammahopper did and push a group through a one-way portal, to see what happens.
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I think the reason I didn't vote on the poll was because it didn't have the option for me:
I use it, and with very little alteration - I love the setting and most of what it has to offer.
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The first option is I DO USE IT - seems to fit your answer pretty well.
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I've read most of the earlier stuff, and worked with it on a project back in the old ICE days, but I was never really interested in running a campaign in it. I'm not a big high fantasy gamer, and the sci-fi aspects didn't grab me, either. Like many, I tend to design my own campaign settings to suit the needs of my gaming group, and most of those have run toward more "realistic" fantasy worlds (defined as magic being somewhat rare/controlled, shorter histories, and a fairly gritty feel..."spaghetti fantasy" if you will).
My current setting (Ennal) had us completely rework the RM2 skill system, professions, and some of the races. I doubt that we'll switch any time soon, as it meets the needs of my groups perfectly. I tend to game with a fair percentage (50% of any given group) who have never played a traditional RPG before, and a more gritty setting makes for an easier introduction for them.
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The first option is I DO USE IT - seems to fit your answer pretty well.
The "but only in a limited way" makes it sound like you take a few pieces and chuck the rest. As I use 98% of Shadow World as is, it just didn't seem right.
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The first option is I DO USE IT - seems to fit your answer pretty well.
The "but only in a limited way" makes it sound like you take a few pieces and chuck the rest. As I use 98% of Shadow World as is, it just didn't seem right.
You're still missing the first option. What you are quoting is the second option.
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I answered the first option. I generally avoid mixing-and-matching from different campaigns and have run four or so campaign set in either parts of Jaiman or Emer (or both!).
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The first option is I DO USE IT - seems to fit your answer pretty well.
The "but only in a limited way" makes it sound like you take a few pieces and chuck the rest. As I use 98% of Shadow World as is, it just didn't seem right.
:bang: The fact that it is all bold made it look like a heading to me. :smash:
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Randal - A couple of questions....
1 - Can you see the results? Counts and %?
2 - After the question, is your first option bolded?
If the answer to these questions is Yes - then you did answer the poll and selected the first option. The bold tells you what option you selected, and the results are only visible once you have voted.
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I'd love to use it but was introducing my group to RMU (completely new to RM) so didn't want them to have to learn a new world and a system so have set it in Midkemia and am using adventure ideas from the SW stuff. Have a copy of virtually everything though:)
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Apparently, that car accident on Dec. 8 that broke my arm did knock my brain around - though it is probably not fair of me to blame the accident, I have always had a memory problem.
Again: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: <--- Of course, that is probably not helping. ;D
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I have always had a memory problem.
Are you sure about that?
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I have always had a memory problem.
Are you sure about that?
Wait for it...
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I forget.
Bada-Bam!
Thank you all. Have a great night, try the veal.
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I would use it in my MERP/RMFRP group but me and my group love Middle Earth :)
And "IF" my other fantasy group ever accepts RMFRP as a fantasy system (we play C&C there), we would stay in the Wilderlands :)
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The answer I would have liked to have seen in the poll is:
"Because I don't know anything about it."
That's my answer. I already know so much about ME, and so much of its legendarium is so moving and so... literary... that I've never even thought to explore or construct another world. Who could top Tolkien?
But then again, I don't know Shadow World.
If I tell you what I like about ME, and especially ME seen through the highly canonical and skillfully-crafted narratives of the early ICE stuff, maybe posters to this board could tell me what I might like or dislike in SW.
I like the richness of course, and the millennia of history that has deepened the world and provided an infinitude of possible settings.
I like the timeless archetypes, reinvented by Tolkien through a matchless lens of scholarship and bardic tradition.
I like the themes that pervade the canon: the unexpected strength and worth of the small and weak, the perception of good and evil in the world as a matter of individual choice. The juxtaposition of the mechanical and contrived against the natural and organic; the warning against pride and too much learning; the timelessness of valor, of love, and of sacrifice.
I like the morality play that is Numenor, Arnor, and Gondor, the mystery that is Gandalf and Bombadil; the sublime beauty that is Rivendell and Lorien.
I like the ravenous hunger of the once-high now enwraithed, its hopelessness, is beaurocratic mercilessness. I like the message of hope despite the darkness, of the endurance of faith, of the immortality of selflessness.
I guess what I'm saying is that for me, gaming is a literary endeavor. Pointless perhaps, but one could say the same thing about tales around the campfire, and we've been doing that as long as we can remember. And therefore ICE offered the perfect storm of original and other hands that made it possible for me to dream aloud to a live audience. It's hard to believe that another world could compete.
But then again, I don't know Shadow World.
So... Shadow World. Whatcha got?
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Easy answer... The Loremaster Legacy (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00E6QAGXK/ref=rdr_kindle_ext_tmb)
Read the book, enjoy the world, and then.... go on your own adventures in it.
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I would love to use the Shadow World if it would have a complete prepared campaign to get a start. Something like to totally fleshed out Grand Campaign.
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I think the above info by a poster might make a good basis for a series of articles "Just what the Heck is Shadow World and Why would I want to use it?" by Terry K Amthor of course (sorry to put more food on your plate).
I think this could be a small series of articles based on the world over view, basic regions and what they mean, power, scope and maybe an over all plot or world theme. IMHO they would not have to be huge and could be linked to products already for sale and as such might be a great sales and info tool.
MDC
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To be wholly honest, I will admit that I quite enjoyed Shadow World when it was in its infancy back in the very early 90s.
However, I read one thing on the website that completely blew it for me.
The most obvious formation is the cluster of crater-rings of mountains in the northwest region. These were formed by the impact/penetration of the super-massive object that struck the planet long ago. (The Pillar of the Gods on the opposite side of the globe marks the exit-point of the object.) Other craters were caused by the impact of trailing material caught in the object's wake, striking along a line as the planet rotated.
One might think that such an object would have destroyed the planet or at least jarred it out of orbit. But the object (possibly a micro-black hole or neutron star) was moving so fast and was so small, that it penetrated Kulthea more like a hot needle than a cold hammer. It streaked through the core and out again in an instant, its gravitational power so briefly felt that the planet's own inertia prevented it from breaking up. More damage to the world was probably done by the cloud of material at the event horizon and the long trail of debris it had accumulated. Much of that material is believed to have also dusted the Five Moons; and the two smallest moons may actually be captured debris from the object. This event may also be the reason for the Essænce.
As soon as "science" was applied to explain the world of Kulthea, and it was wrong and completely impossible "science", I lost all interest.
Perhaps if the world of Kulthea were put into its own pocket universe where "science" does not exist and only "fantasy" rules, then Kulthea might be a viable "fantasy role playing" world.
I still say if Mr. Amthor properly investigated the possibilities of what a "micro black hole" or "neutron star" would actually do to a planet, then Kulthea would have been obliterated.
It would have been better to say the God Thakor grew angry at the evil and threw his spear through the world.
Once the "science" of a black hole or neutron star penetrating through the planet was applied, it made Kulthea an IMPOSSIBLE setting for me.
I will admit that I am not a professional astrophysicist, but I know enough to know that such a tale is completely impossible from a "science" or "science fiction" perspective.
rmfr
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I like the "penetration" idea. If you apply any science to a fantasy world, it becomes unrealistic at some point. My own campaign world is a great deal larger than our earth, and would be twice the mass in the real universe. Still, gravity is "normal". So the world is semi-hollow, with great caves underneath the surface, practically everywhere. Which of course is completely impossible unless you apply more laws of magic than laws of physics.
Trying to explain Kulthea in terms of modern physics, however, is of course futile. But I still like the idea of an angry god with a Holy Sniper-rifle with bullets of planet-piercing, or [insert favorite explanation here], causing a hole through the planet at some point in history.
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possibly a micro-black hole or neutron star
Meh, the word possibly was used and from the perspective of an author who could be wrong. Do you complain when watching any science fiction movie that "there is no way that could happen" and then walk out?
I do view much (all?) of what is written in SW as from the opinion or observation of someone in that world; Loremasters are simply gross in power. Also (I can't remember how much of this is cannon or our game) the Kata-viir empire did have super science and they could have had forbidden weapons like singularity guns... it isn't as if this is the first time black holes have been mis used.
Did you know that Rumulans from Star Trek use black holes as a power source in their space ships? :)
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I actually liked the idea of a micro black hole passing incredibly fast through the planet.
...and it did only say 'POSSIBLY a micro black hole'.
You could also say it may have been on another plane of existence that intersected Kulthea's which is why the full destructive force wasn't unleashed or that the Lords of Orhan had a part in minimising the effects or that the thing was going unthinkably fast (faster than 'trans-warp' speed from the Star Trek TNG universe) that only a fraction of it's power was felt (which is how I originally understood it).
I like the 'spear through the planet' idea and that could be what most of the current population (which is set in the Third Era) would think but the original people (and those still living to this day) would have had a better grasp of what actually caused it.
The Shadow World is a Fantasy setting but it's also a Sci-Fi setting as well. The original Spacemaster books were set during Kulthea's First Era and it's people were space faring and ruled most of their galaxy at that time (if I recall correctly) and a lot of that tech is still dotted around Kulthea today.
Do you complain when watching any science fiction movie that "there is no way that could happen" and then walk out?
Good point. There isn't a lot of fact in any Sci-Fi movie or TV series around today but we enjoy them nonetheless. Well, I do anyway. ;D
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The problem is my players' love of the Middle Earth setting. I have been trying to get them to try SW, but they are entrenched in the lore of ME so they have always chosen to go back there.
This, which applies to me personally as well, both as a player and GM.
I am not interested in another setting (much), though I've been lifting individual scenarios and story seeds from any and every system I've come across if they cater to my low-magic, low-level, down-to-earth narrative style.
To illustrate the point: My group has been playing a Middle-Earth campaign set in the northwest just prior to the War of 1409 for more than a decade.
When we tried to do something different for a change, we switched sides and played as a Cultirith unit in the employ of evil Rhudaur.
We also decided to try out a more magical game with Arabian Nights overtones, specifically to try out some character classes and stories that didn't fit our main setting. Guess what... we started a campaign set in Umbar and the South, as designed by ICE.
Oh, and there's an unfinished campaign I've been working on for years that puts the players into the Misty Mountains as orc grunts. The concept was what inspired the Rhudaur campaign GM.
I like small-scale stories and low-power settings, and on this level (your average farming village) most fantasy worlds are just too similar to one another - a farming village in Middle-Earth will be pretty similar to one from The Wheel of Time, or from The Song of Ice and Fire, or Das Schwarze Auge/The Dark Eye, or Enwor, or Hârnworld, or what-have-you. The fantasy monsters and magic rules may be different, but after all they're just window dressing for the story which, if it is good, should work equally well in a historical medieval setting without any mosters or magic whatsoever. Which lessens the need for getting to know yet another fantasy setting.
As a general observation, I think players like to roleplay in a world they already know - a familiar world where they feel at home is more important than the ruleset.
Besides Middle-Earth, our stock fantasy setting, the only settings that my group would even consider playing in are BattleTech and Shadowrun, both of which are distinctly different and well-developed universes with a unique flavor of their own (as opposed to "pseudo-medieval plus magic" fantasy settings).
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As a general observation, I think players like to roleplay in a world they already know - a familiar world where they feel at home is more important than the ruleset
This is an interesting point vladD although one I partially disagree with - it shows perhaps the very varied nature of the RPG hobby and the widely-different experiences of player groups in it.
We did try MERP back when I was a teenager playing with friends but found it not to our tastes. I ran several very successful campaigns in SW (and in OD&D's Known World/Mystara setting) on the other hand. So from my experiences of the two main groups I've played with, high-fantasy worlds with as little connection to the real world as possible were the preference. I guess these groups were more at home with such settings based on the books they read/ films they liked or worlds they wanted to imagine.
Your mileage may vary, as they say :)
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Personally, I wouldn't want to play D&D in a familiar world over a unfamiliar world in RM. I could be wrong, but I suspect you'll get that opinion from most users who feel strongly about which game system they prefer to use.
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I use it for most of my campaigning, I adjust the political nature and adventures to suite my needs, but for the most part I keep it intact. The only thing I keep out is the Aether and Navigators though.
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I haven't run RM in any form for many years now.
I think the last time I ran it was 1998.
However, when I did, I used Shadow World.
I'd been using it off and on from about 1990 onwards I guess.
I just didn't think RM suited Middle Earth.
I had Space master as well, which I used with RM in Shadow world to handle the occasional Scifi element to the campaign.
For that matter I also ran Spacemaster. The world Kulthea (or Ceril 7 in SM) actually existed in the SM campaign.
Good times.
I doubt I'll ever find enough people to play RM or SM anymore, although for old times sake, I'll probably buy the new version just for a good read.
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Late to the party as usual.
I love Shadow World but find it difficult to introduce new players to it because the races, cultures and histories are too disjointed to pick up & play. That is the reality of my gaming now- there's not enough time to immerse yourself in the larger picture of Shadow World.
Typically, I use a couple of very specific locales and end up having to ignore the larger scale material because otherwise I end up having to dictate history like a prequel to their adventures. So, I use only Jaiman with Norek, Quellebourne, and some customizations in between to make SW fit into a more low-level and less epic story driven game. Oh, and Xa'ar. I have cut & paste a history document out of the PDFs I own and give it to players to read...most of them don't because even it is a little long!
To me this is Shadow World- all the rest is in a universe far far away...
One of my great frustrations with SW & RM is that they are seemingly partnered up; but neither one represents the best of each other IMO. SW is a high fantasy setting and RM is a low magic system. The disconnect and disparity in power is frustrating for players-
So, basically to run higher scaled games, I have begun using SW with other game systems; Specifically HERO and D6.
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SW is a high fantasy setting and RM is a low magic system. The disconnect and disparity in power is frustrating for players
I suspect you're going to get some wild variations on opinions as to whether RM is high or low magic. I hear that it's high magic more than I hear that it's low magic. Personally, I find it to be neither - it's just a matter of your groups style and what the GM allows.
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Late to the party as usual.
I love Shadow World but find it difficult to introduce new players to it because the races, cultures and histories are too disjointed to pick up & play. That is the reality of my gaming now- there's not enough time to immerse yourself in the larger picture of Shadow World.
Typically, I use a couple of very specific locales and end up having to ignore the larger scale material because otherwise I end up having to dictate history like a prequel to their adventures. So, I use only Jaiman with Norek, Quellebourne, and some customizations in between to make SW fit into a more low-level and less epic story driven game. Oh, and Xa'ar. I have cut & paste a history document out of the PDFs I own and give it to players to read...most of them don't because even it is a little long!
To me this is Shadow World- all the rest is in a universe far far away...
One of my great frustrations with SW & RM is that they are seemingly partnered up; but neither one represents the best of each other IMO. SW is a high fantasy setting and RM is a low magic system. The disconnect and disparity in power is frustrating for players-
So, basically to run higher scaled games, I have begun using SW with other game systems; Specifically HERO and D6.
Low magic system? What is a high magic system for you if you think RM is low magic? In our group the only complaints about RM is that its too high on magic and maybe complex and too detailed which ends up in a slow combat system and problem to involve new players. I should mention that I have almost only played RM2 with companions and other add-ons and this makes the high magic game even more so.
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RM is a system that can be fitted for low-magic and high-magic. The rules allow for both of them and all the range from one to the other. Each GM can adopt what he finds better for his world and playing-style. After all, even in high-magic worlds (like SW) the regular man doesn't see magic at all. A peasant in Rakhaan will not see much of magic, except maybe some local healer, that can be as well mumbo-jumbo with no real magic. Even in towns magic is not a regular issue.
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...and maybe complex and too detailed which ends up in a slow combat system and problem to involve new players. I should mention that I have almost only played RM2 with companions and other add-ons and this makes the high magic game even more so.
Individual character binders and Combat Minion! ;)
From the start with MERP, then RM, we took binders with dry erase sleeves and setup out characters. That helps with combat speed. We also have players look up all their own results so the GM isn't doing it all. Of course, just having players that pay attention during combat is a huge factor in the first place.
1st/2nd pages are character info.
3rd/4th are skills.
5th/6th are combat sheet info and, if needed, experience tracking sheet.
7th/8th (and however many needed two page combos) are weapon or spell attack table and corresponding crit chart.
9th/Etc Then come the spell lists you know.
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I posted in the Shadow World forum regarding what sort of low-level, everyday magical (like AD&D cantrips) would be commonly seen. A high magic setting should, I think, see a lot of what appear to be minor magics that could have a noticeable cumulative effect.
A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe touches on this.
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I suspect you're going to get some wild variations on opinions as to whether RM is high or low magic. I hear that it's high magic more than I hear that it's low magic. Personally, I find it to be neither - it's just a matter of your groups style and what the GM allows.
Indeed I will. But, I am just the messenger. Most of us have been playing ICE games for a long time and have customized it and house-ruled the areas required for our games. I guess when I see a request for feedback from an Author I want to give it based on the face-value of how the work reads. For a new player- Shadow World reads High Magic. For a new reader Rolemaster reads Low-Magic.
As note the RM reading like Low-Magic is largely due to the Spell Classes (Type I-III) and lack of "attack" spells. Lets face it- its a game and you want to be cool right away.
In my opinion the partnering of SW & RM would be well served by an official adaptation of the RM spell casting system to reflect SW. I think the SW material as written is interesting, and different than any other setting out there- but the aspects of it that make it interesting are largely unavailable to PCs...so, find a way to bridge that gap a little so that players from levels 1-10 can become involved in these interesting aspects that define SW. My observation is that Magic is a gap that needs to be bridged.
I am not of the opinion that starting at higher levels is a solution. I'm an "its the journey, not the destination" kinda GM...I want players to struggle through the first couple of levels and get a feel for the tone of SW.
Aside from magic, I also mentioned that the multitude of races/cultures is too much to navigate for players, and that I end up pairing the setting down to a bare-bones setting. I assume that this is a fairly common practice as well; but, felt I should mention it as building a feeling of continuity in games is very important. I realise that much of the SW material was written under license and so wasn't under Terry's watchful eye...but, it still exists and throws sneaky curve balls for those of use still running games in 2014! I also think creating a canon list (if it does not already exist) and a GMs guide similar to the players guide would be really helpfull.
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In my opinion the partnering of SW & RM would be well served by an official adaptation of the RM spell casting system to reflect SW. I think the SW material as written is interesting, and different than any other setting out there- but the aspects of it that make it interesting are largely unavailable to PCs...so, find a way to bridge that gap a little so that players from levels 1-10 can become involved in these interesting aspects that define SW. My observation is that Magic is a gap that needs to be bridged.
How would you do this? Would it be simply making the spell names less utterly boring, or some other way?
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I think adapting spell casting should up to the Author- as its basically trying to make sure that the system is aligned with his vision of how magic works in Shadow World. Maybe we should run a game for him as a level 1 Magician and see what he thinks! That would be fun!
Off the top of my head I would say adopt some sort of variable casting time rules....I think the Express Additions had one. (I use the ones from MERP). And make overcasting spells possible with a penalty based on the difference between caster & spell level. I think RMSS had huge chart for this....
I'm all about branding. So, perhaps making a few custom spell casters and lists that can only be found in Shadow World. I know there are some Loremaster lists and Navigator lists but those are not for PCs. Maybe some action based semi casters that would play in to the principles that make SW unique- technomancer (magic as technology tinkerer), Privateer (not a great name)(sailor/navigator), or some similar professions that would "force" the players to get into the intricacies of SW...
Again, I am just the messenger, and trying to provide some constructive feedback based on the experience I have had trying to convert players from other systems....
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I know there are some Loremaster lists and Navigator lists but those are not for PCs.
I never played them that way.
While I think of Shadow World as the "default" setting of RM, I don't think that RM should have built-in SW stuff (like spell-lists and/or professions). RM needs to be available to be used for other settings without having to strip off the SW stuff, though a GM will always have some work in adapting RM to the setting they are using, they don't need any extra work.
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How about a Shadow World specific supplement with such things?
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I'd love to make some special spell lists for my Lethys project.
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While I think of Shadow World as the "default" setting of RM, I don't think that RM should have built-in SW stuff (like spell-lists and/or professions). RM needs to be available to be used for other settings without having to strip off the SW stuff, though a GM will always have some work in adapting RM to the setting they are using, they don't need any extra work.
I did not mean to imply to adapt core RM material to Shadow World. My suggestion is more like you could buy a players manual for Shadow World that would include customized professions from Shadow World. Maybe region based books for a few bucks. Part of the challenge with running a game in SW is that it is so huge and the cultures and races are so varied that you end up painting them all with the same brush to make it more playable. A product like this would add flavour and detail as well as be a starting popint for new players to delve into SW.
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I did not mean to imply to adapt core RM material to Shadow World. My suggestion is more like you could buy a players manual for Shadow World that would include customized professions from Shadow World. Maybe region based books for a few bucks. Part of the challenge with running a game in SW is that it is so huge and the cultures and races are so varied that you end up painting them all with the same brush to make it more playable. A product like this would add flavour and detail as well as be a starting popint for new players to delve into SW.
While I agree with the "region based books" idea, I don't agree with the "paint with the same brush" method. The reason SW is so cool is because of the variety of different cultures and races, and that they are not all the same - or just slightly different looking humans. (Which you cannot get away from totally, of course, as a human did create the cultures.)
So, I guess, I am confused as to what you are wanting here: Do you want different, and hence, flavorful races & cultures? Or do you want ones similar to each other, so they can be "playable"? Though, I would really love a more detailed races guide for SW (see separate thread) as you suggest here, where all the different human cultures (and some non-human ones) from the various parts of Kulthea are detailed and given "special nuggets" of game stuff (like the a fore mentioned spell-lists), so put me down as a buyer of said product if it ever comes out.
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LOL- you and me both. I am not wanting anything in particular. I'm just offering a perspective that may assist attracting new players...as I have mentioned, I run a game for "new" players and have observed the challenges that they have with SW & RM.
I already create a document of available races/cultures etc....but, not everyone has the time or experience to do it
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Oh and for those who don't like all the high-powered aspects, I am making an effort to do more low-level/reasonable adventures in the revisions. And of course the Emer books really needed the adventure material (what there was) overhauled and expanded!
And there is the point.
For all my years of gaming with Rolemaster System, with many setting, the real problem with this system is to handle the high level in a nice manner for the players. When you reach spell level 20, you have some spell that kill you outright when failing a RR. That not fit with the style of heroic campaign when mortality has to be keep to a very low rate, and melee has to be epic. Not to say that only Rolemaster has that glitch, but I think best range for playing RM his, well, let say 1-14 lvl fot the player. Hoxever, I was not playing RM for almost 20 years, having passed to other system that IMO are more catching the flavor of the Campaign I love.For this kind of consideration, RM system his (IMO again) not fitting Middle Earth spirit. Nevertheless, i (and I wil continue) to use the ICE module, campaign and setting of Middle Earth for their are a masterful kind of work.
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For all my years of gaming with Rolemaster System, with many setting, the real problem with this system is to handle the high level in a nice manner for the players. When you reach spell level 20, you have some spell that kill you outright when failing a RR. That not fit with the style of heroic campaign when mortality has to be keep to a very low rate, and melee has to be epic.
Simple solution is give players a way to combat the spells you're worried about or, better yet, limit those spells in the first place. As the GM you control the level of magic in your campaigns, not the system. In 'my little world' pure casters are rare and magic is often look upon with suspicion if not outright fear. So you need to be subtle about your magic use the vast majority of the time. I also stated I didn't want more than one pure spell user in the group and that that character needed to really remember the 'subtle' comment (they ended up making a caster that has really few obvious spell results).
Not to say that only Rolemaster has that glitch, but I think best range for playing RM his, well, let say 1-14 lvl fot the player. Hoxever, I was not playing RM for almost 20 years, having passed to other system that IMO are more catching the flavor of the Campaign I love.For this kind of consideration, RM system his (IMO again) not fitting Middle Earth spirit. Nevertheless, i (and I wil continue) to use the ICE module, campaign and setting of Middle Earth for their are a masterful kind of work.
I have to agree that, without any limitations placed on spell use and development, RM results in a 'high magic' game once you start getting to the levels you mentioned. Our primary two GM's in our gaming circle tended to end campaigns around 12th to 14th level or so (the lowest being about 8th level, the highest 17th) because of the problem with casters starting to rule the game without having had any spell limitations placed on them (either by house rule or in-game environment).