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Systems & Settings => HARP => Topic started by: SamwiseSeven on May 11, 2008, 11:32:31 AM

Title: Card Initiative not tied to stats (House Rule)
Post by: SamwiseSeven on May 11, 2008, 11:32:31 AM

I was looking at some RPG reviews, and one of the games had an initiative system that was based on dealing out playing cards, and initiative was based on what card you drew regardless of any of your stats or skills.

I thought that was pretty cool myself.  I think this would work really well for HARP for instance that says in the rules that initiative should be rolled each round of combat (as dealing out cards and flipping them over is much faster than dice, add them up, and organize them).  I made my own initiative system for Harp, as rolling for each initiative takes a long time, so I just normally do it once per combat. But this houserule might bring me closer to the HARP core rules.  :)

For this card initiative system you just look at the playing cards on the table, going from highest to lowest, flipping them over when you are done with your actions for that round.

I would think taking 1 suit, say Hearts out of a deck of playing cards would work well.  Shuffle them, and deal them out for initiative for the good guys and bad guys.

If you want a possibility that 2 or more people could go on the same initiative, you could include 2 or more suits.

Title: Re: Card Initiative not tied to stats (House Rule)
Post by: munchy on May 11, 2008, 03:39:14 PM

Sounds like an interesting idea although the point that no stats are involved seems to be the proplematic issue in it. I imagine especially fighters who receive a bonus to initiative would start to moan about this and as soon as you start adding stuff again you're probably better off with rolling dice.
Initiative once a combat has worked pretty fine for us so far. Still, as I said initially, the idea sounds interesting. Would be interesting in reading your experiences with it.

Title: Re: Card Initiative not tied to stats (House Rule)
Post by: Eisenmann on May 11, 2008, 04:05:24 PM

I'll go out on a limb and guess that this is from Savage Worlds.  ;)

In SW, there are edges for manipulating the cards.  The one that I can think of off the top of my head requires that a character/player gets dealt a minimum card, i.e. deal them a card till it they get at least an 8 or some such number.

I LOVE running SW because the cards make determining initiative and keeping track who has already gone extremely easy.  Hmm... how best to HARP-ize the concept?

Title: Re: Card Initiative not tied to stats (House Rule)
Post by: DavidKlecker on May 11, 2008, 04:52:15 PM

One idea I had to the cumbersome initiative roll each round was to bring in a few Ceats rules. That is next game I am doing I will have the players roll once for the whole melee. However they can adjust their initiative per turn by applying a bonus or negative to the roll. For each +5 to their initiative they get a -10 to their OB and the highest they can go is -30 so they can really only apply a +15 to their initiative. On the other end I have a +5 bonus for each -10 to their initiative, however I cap the bonus at +15. I honestly don't want to give to high an OB bonus because it's way too easy to hit in Harp to begin with. So I feel it is necessary to force the player to practically go last just to get the +15 in addition.

Title: Re: Card Initiative not tied to stats (House Rule)
Post by: SamwiseSeven on May 11, 2008, 09:00:50 PM

Well sometimes when you add in Houserules you have to adjust other things, hehe.

All rules pertaining to initiative would have to be eliminated and replaced by other perks.

I know people like the fact that stats are tied to initiative, but I kind of like the idea of it being completely random.  :)

I think it was Savage Worlds that I read that in, good call.

Title: Re: Card Initiative not tied to stats (House Rule)
Post by: Eisenmann on May 11, 2008, 09:08:22 PM

I'm a big fan of Savage Worlds and feel that it does a lot of things right including how it handles initiative.  It is visceral because people can see the cards and the value is just that, the face value of the card.  When someone's turn is over remove the card.  So it keeps the game flowing.

I can easily see this being ported to HARP with modification of/addition to Professional Abilities and Traits.

Title: Re: Card Initiative not tied to stats (House Rule)
Post by: jurasketu on May 11, 2008, 09:48:12 PM

Re: Reply#3

I also have each character roll once at the start of an encounter.

Pardon the digression... but I am rankled by random initiative - so I use a lot of round-to-round initiative modifiers for injuries suffered, winning the fight, losing the fight, etc that usually outclass the random element and even the stats unless the stat differential is substantial (which can be true if a character has been given a Boost Quickness or is fighting a particularly nasty quick monster).

Robin

Title: Re: Card Initiative not tied to stats (House Rule)
Post by: uberyoung on May 12, 2008, 07:13:46 AM

How about you get dealt:
     1 card + 1 extra per 5 points (or whatever seems reasonable) of initiative bonus.
     Keep ONE card of your chosing.

That way you have a higher chance of getting a 'good' card...

Sometimes you may want to take a low card to ensure going last (if you don't allow 'holding' an action AKA Deadlands putting a card 'up your sleeve')...

Title: Re: Card Initiative not tied to stats (House Rule)
Post by: SamwiseSeven on May 13, 2008, 10:51:51 PM

Others have suggested that each person gets a stack of cards (2 --> Ace, or 2 --> 10) that they can use whenever they want, but once they use the card, it is lost for that session.  So people would have to weigh when they think they will have to go first.  If you use all of the high cards in the early battles, later battles you will be last etc.

Personally I like random, and dealing.  Giving quick characters an option of two cards sounds like a good idea, as well. :)

Title: Re: Card Initiative not tied to stats (House Rule)
Post by: SamwiseSeven on June 20, 2008, 10:11:22 PM

Also with this new deck of card initiative system you have to remove some talents, and modify the Fighter Profession (and any other Profession, or race) that has any bonuses to initiative and give them something else instead.

I'm in the process of going through ALL of my HARP materials and trying to figure out what I will be using in a possible future campaign, and what my house rules will do the system, and try to avoid any problems ahead of time.  I may decide against some houserules, but for initiative I'm excited about using a deck of playing cards.  :) 

Flipping cards for initiative every round will be quick, and I think I will enjoy seeing it happen. 

It is strange for an initiative system to not be tied to stats, but for me, I think the speed of it trumps the complaints.  It is purely random for the players and the NPCs.  So from a player perspective, every player has the same odds of going first, or being last.

Title: Re: Card Initiative not tied to stats (House Rule)
Post by: SamwiseSeven on June 28, 2008, 09:37:01 AM

I went ahead and put "flavor text" on a whole deck of playing cards mocking the slow initiatives and having the higher ones with comical battle cries.  hehe.  :) 

I decided that using a whole deck was better, since I will be dealing out initiative cards every round (I won't have to shuffle as much).

I was also thinking that for those instances when there is a tie (two people get the same card initiative, Queen of Hearts, Queen of Spades, etc.) that ties would be broken using the highest Quickness Stat Bonus.  If the Quickness Stat Bonuses are tied, then do a similar comparison of the Insight Stat Bonuses.  If those are tied (very unlikely) then have a dice roll off to see who goes first.

Title: Re: Card Initiative not tied to stats (House Rule)
Post by: uberyoung on July 02, 2008, 06:39:25 AM

Or use the Bridge (I think?) precedence order of:

SPADES >> beats >> HEARTS >> beats >> DIAMONDS >> beats >> CLUBS

???

Title: Re: Card Initiative not tied to stats (House Rule)
Post by: Eisenmann on July 02, 2008, 07:18:34 PM

Awesome.  I can't wait to try it out.

Title: Re: Card Initiative not tied to stats (House Rule)
Post by: Right Wing Wacko on July 02, 2008, 08:47:48 PM

Quote from: SamwiseSeven on June 28, 2008, 09:37:01 AM

I went ahead and put "flavor text" on a whole deck of playing cards mocking the slow initiatives and having the higher ones with comical battle cries.  hehe.  :) 

I decided that using a whole deck was better, since I will be dealing out initiative cards every round (I won't have to shuffle as much).

I was also thinking that for those instances when there is a tie (two people get the same card initiative, Queen of Hearts, Queen of Spades, etc.) that ties would be broken using the highest Quickness Stat Bonus.  If the Quickness Stat Bonuses are tied, then do a similar comparison of the Insight Stat Bonuses.  If those are tied (very unlikely) then have a dice roll off to see who goes first.

Sounds really cool... I can't wait ;)

Title: Re: Card Initiative not tied to stats (House Rule)
Post by: SamwiseSeven on July 02, 2008, 10:27:55 PM

Quote

Or use the Bridge (I think?) precedence order of:

SPADES >> beats >> HEARTS >> beats >> DIAMONDS >> beats >> CLUBS

Hmm, I like the idea (have an idea point).  I will ask the players if they want to break ties with their Quickness bonus, or with the precedence of suit order you mentioned above.  Maybe I would have the order be Spades, Clubs, Diamonds, Hearts (black black red red).

Yeah I plan on using the card initiative system that I worked out above, with the deck with "flavor text."  :) 

Title: Re: Card Initiative not tied to stats (House Rule)
Post by: SamwiseSeven on July 05, 2008, 09:58:31 PM

The players decided to go with the highest Quickness Bonus to break ties with the cards dealt.  The flavor text was a big hit.  If I get time I will type them all in so people can see what I wrote, hehe.

It played very well, and quickly, handing out cards every round.  I'm a fan of my own initiative system, lol.

Title: Re: Card Initiative not tied to stats (House Rule)
Post by: Eisenmann on July 05, 2008, 10:28:05 PM

Seconded.  It worked very well.

Title: Re: Card Initiative not tied to stats (House Rule)
Post by: SamwiseSeven on July 06, 2008, 10:26:27 AM

Here is the "flavor text" for the cards.  The higher numbers are meant to be battle cries in capitals, and the lower numbers I just mock the players, hehe.  Some of them are a little lame, as I think my inspiration for coming up with text towards the end fizzled out.  I may make another deck to add to this one.  But for now this is the deck I have:

Ace Spades "DIE A THOUSAND DEATHS!"
King Spades "YOU ARE DOOMED!"
Queen Spades "YOUR MOTHER HATES YOU!"
Jack Spades "YOU SHALL SUFFER!"
10 Spades "I GIVE YOU DEATH!"
9 Spades "You are bland and average."
8 Spades "You can do better than that!"
7 Spades [Draw Another Card, and add it to this one.]
6 Spades "You're late to dinner."
5 Spades "Use the pointy end."
4 Spades "Are you good at anything?"
3 Spades "Give into despair..."
2 Spades "To call you slow, is an insult to all of the slow people."

Ace Clubs "DIE, SONS OF MOTHERLESS GOATS!"
King Clubs "THY TIME IS AT AN END!"
Queen Clubs "YOUR MOTHER REGRETS YOU!"
Jack Clubs "DIE AND CURSE IN VAIN!"
10 Clubs "I BRING PAIN!"
9 Clubs "Ouch!"
8 Clubs "Move faster!"
7 Clubs [Draw Another Card, and add it to this one.]
6 Clubs "Are you sleeping?"
5 Clubs "You are bad at this, give up."
4 Clubs "Not a fast one are you?"
3 Clubs "If your father could see you now, he would weep."
2 Clubs "You might want to quit..."
 
Ace Diamonds "DIE, SCUM LICKING VERMIN!"
King Diamonds "SOON YOU DIE!"
Queen Diamonds "YOUR MOMMA IS NEXT!"
Jack Diamonds "NO MORE BREATH FOR YOU!"
10 Diamonds "GIVE UP ALL HOPE!"
9 Diamonds "Unggggghghgh!"
8 Diamonds "Death comes to most of us."
7 Diamonds [Draw Another Card, and add it to this one.]
6 Diamonds "Wake up!"
5 Diamonds "Not so good."
4 Diamonds "Nope, you still suck."
3 Diamonds "You are behind the snail..."
2 Diamonds "It's time to smash your head against the wall."

Ace Hearts "DIE, MULE LOVERS!"
King Hearts "I'LL EAT YOUR SPLEEN!"
Queen Hearts "YOUR MOTHER WILL CRY!"
Jack Hearts "SIX FEET DOWN YOU GO!"
10 Hearts "THIS IS YOUR LAST BREATH!"
9 Hearts "I love to see you bleed."
8 Hearts "Bloody lips drink sips."  (kind of a dumb one..)
7 Hearts [Draw Another Card, and add it to this one.]
6 Hearts "Anybody in there?"
5 Hearts "You suck."
4 Hearts "Boo!"
3 Hearts "Last and least."
2 Hearts "Why do you even try?"

Title: Re: Card Initiative not tied to stats (House Rule)
Post by: janpmueller on July 07, 2008, 06:29:38 AM

I always like optical means for game concepts. A thing that occured to me to reflect different initiative modifiers (stat-based as well as situational, e.g. surprise, flanking, etc.): Make 4 stacks (using the 4 suits).
Hearts: Remove the 2s, 3s and 4s
Diamonds: Remove the 2s and 4s
Clubs: Remove the Aces and Queens
Spades: Remove the Aces, Kings and Queens

Then, apply a cutoff to determine who can draw from which suit (e.g., stat-init < 10: spades; 10-13: clubs; and so on).
Stun could mean: "You draw from the worst suit as long as you're stunned" or "Surprise" could mean "You draw from the best suit".

It's just an idea, though, and maybe it overcomplicates and slows the system, but, on the other hand, it might work and make the fighters happy.

Title: Re: Card Initiative not tied to stats (House Rule)
Post by: SamwiseSeven on July 07, 2008, 07:27:57 AM

For now I think I'm going to keep it as is, but I like your idea on piles of quickness (have an idea point), where quicker people have a slight edge on drawing cards that make them possibly faster for initiative. 

I got rid of the racial ability and talent for Gryx and Fighters that adds to initiative and replaced it with Accelerated Healing.

You can have 2-3 decks worth of playing cards to make each suit pile a little bigger as well.

Perhaps the pile you draw from depends mainly on your total of Quickness and Intuition stat bonuses?  You could lay out some chart saying if your bonus is W-X you draw from this pile, if its Y-Z you draw from this pile, etc.  For situational modifiers you could say you draw from a slower pile if you are stunned, really hurt, etc.  In the initiative section on the character sheet you could list which suit pile they draw from.  Initiative = Hearts. 

Title: Re: Card Initiative not tied to stats (House Rule)
Post by: janpmueller on July 07, 2008, 09:43:12 AM

Nicely fleshed out. Something along these lines was exactly where I hoped I was heading :)
I'll ask my GM if we'll try that. I hate calculating...

Title: Re: Card Initiative not tied to stats (House Rule)
Post by: janpmueller on July 08, 2008, 04:35:06 AM

Update: I tried the system yesterday with my GM, and it was fun! It acts like a minigame within the combat, and the greater randomness might even add to that effect! Great Idea, SamwiseSeven! I already gave you an idea point for it.

My former "different piles" idea seemed too much of a hassle yesterday. What we came up with instead was this:

Initiative	Action
0 - 5	Don't draw a card
6 - 10	Draw two cards, use the lower one
11-15	Draw one card
16-20	Draw a card. You may redraw, but you must use the 2nd card
21+	Draw two cards, use the higher one.

Stun automatically results in not being allowed to draw. Other effects (2handed weapons and the like) were dismissed.

Worked very well for us. We're gonna present it to the other players the Saturday after next. I'm very curious!

Jan

Title: Re: Card Initiative not tied to stats (House Rule)
Post by: VortexSurfer on July 17, 2008, 04:06:55 AM

As the GM mentioned, I have to agree. It?s a really nice minigame. However, I prefer the following ranges to determine initiative:

0 - 15: Draw one card (I don?t want to put the lower ratings at such a big disadvantage)
16-20: Draw a card. You may redraw, but you must use the 2nd card
21+:    Draw two cards, use the higher one.

Stunned: Don?t draw, you?re last.
Retreated (if you use the SPAR system: http://www.guildcompanion.com/scrolls/2008/mar/sparforharp.html (http://www.guildcompanion.com/scrolls/2008/mar/sparforharp.html)) or did a full parry in the last round: Draw two cards, use the lower one.

This worked pretty well for us; we even thought about developing a tabletop game (like HeroQuest) using our new ruleset, the combats were that much fun.   ;D

Title: Re: Card Initiative not tied to stats (House Rule)
Post by: SamwiseSeven on July 19, 2008, 08:06:12 AM

I'm glad you liked it.  It is a quick way to have the initiative change every round.  It's nice to look out at the table and figure out who is next.  You don't have to keep a piece of paper with initiative orders, or any of those initiative order trackers that some pay for with magnets and the like.

I don't know why (perhaps because it doesn't involve dice) that the players seem to like it more.  It's a bit of a change from normal RPGing.  They like the "flavor text" as well that mocks them when they draw a low number, and the silly war cries for the higher numbers.

Thanks for the idea points.  :)

Title: Re: Card Initiative not tied to stats (House Rule)
Post by: Realm Master K on September 16, 2008, 08:21:17 AM

Hi,
I'm new to the forums, but I have been gamemastering Rolemaster for 7 years. I am looking at HARP as a way to simplify, and speed up our gaming. I love your Card Initiative idea. I have come up with an alternate way to deal with initiative bonus that I would like to share.

Init Bonus 0-5    Draw 3 cards, use the lowest
              6-10   Draw 2 cards, use the lowest
             11-15  Draw 1 card
             16-20  Draw 1 card, May draw a 2nd but must use it
               21+   Draw 2 cards, use the highest

Any time someone ends on a 7 they must draw another card and use that card, however, it does not count against their total drawn cards eg, if someone can draw 2 cards, and the first is a 7, they get another card automatically, but they can still draw their 2nd card

In playtesting this seems to work well, and it gives the lower intitative bonus folks a chance to have fun as well. In fact with some luck, they can even go first, although that would take a lot of luck, just like real life.

Let me know what you think.

Realm Master K

Title: Re: Card Initiative not tied to stats (House Rule)
Post by: SamwiseSeven on March 14, 2009, 08:08:24 AM

I've been using this method of initiative in several other RPGs, and all the players enjoy it.  They like the excitement it brings every round, and they look forward to what card is going to be dealt to them.  They also like the flavor texts, though some I admit need revised for some better ones.