Topic: Problem: Qu or Realm stat for initiative?

[Dreven1]

Hello All!
I have a question concerning initiative. I let my players use either the QU stat for physical initiative or their main realm stats for spell initiative according to the situation.  Most of the time it works... a player simply stats they are going to use their OB or going to cast a spell... HOWEVER...

I had a player last game question which initiative bonus to use in combat and they didn?t know whether they should use their realm stat for initiative or their QU stat.

Here is their dilemma.

E.g. Orc #432 is entering combat.  Player #3 (who has SELF protective spells and a good melee OB) wants to use the initiative for the OB on Orc #432 IF the Orc doesn?t attack them, however, Player #3 wants to use the Realm stat for initiative instead to cast a protective spell IF the Orc targets them for an attack.

So, we start to roll initiative so that the GM can see in which order their actions go but the player doesn?t know if they should use the QU bonus or the Realm stat bonus for initiative!?!?!  its a catch 22.

How can this be resolved? Any ideas? (lets don?t even talk about instant spells yet)

[Ecthelion]

The normal round sequence would be that the players declare their actions at the beginning of the round, not knowing the actions of their opponents. If you choose this standard handling then your above problem does not arise because Player #3 has to decide beforehand whether he wants to cast a spell or do e.g. a normal parry. And depending on this choice, where he can only guess what Orc #432 will to, he would then use the initiative based on Qu or the realm stat. I would suggest to use this standard way of handling the round sequence.

P.S.: RMSS/RMFRP have an optional rule to use SD for all non-physical actions. So you could also use SD as stat for the initiative for such actions instead of the realm stat.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

As Ecthelion states, normally, declaration is done before rolling is done, and the players shouldn't know the actions of the foes when they make their declarations.

However, I would also say that the simplest solution is to tell the player that he doesn't know what the Orc is going to do, and in order to find out what the Orc is going to do, (presuming you are playing RMFRP) he needs to make a Rapid Observation maneuver (-40 to the roll) and that it requires 30% activity.

And since the Observation maneuver is a physical action, use the Qu initiative bonus.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

Technically, since your PC waits for the Orc to act before acting, he decides to lose initiative to the Orc since the start... Anyway, he cannot know whether the Orc plans to attack them until the Orc has effectively attacked them; until them, the Orc may just be slow in his attack action or taking his time to adjust his attack.
I mean, even if he sees the Orc readying his arc, the Orc may just shout an order instead of attacking or change his mind and not attack at all.

[mocking bird]

We use the realm stat for init for spell casters if they know they are casting.
Init defaults to quickness in the case of delaying their action to see what transpires.

[Skaran]

As above, realm stat for spells qu for physical. However if the orcs initiative is better than the players then the orc can clobber the player before he/she decides on an action. Only in the case of the player's character having a better initiative and holding action to see what the opponant is going to do will the player's character still get to decide.
In a sense you have both a magical and non-magical initiative and depending on events time may run out for one or the other or both if you are holding action to see what that orc will do, since effectively by the time you know what the orc is going to do he has done it!
Best to try and anticipate (specify at the start of the round what your action is going to be) if you guess wrong your friends will help.

You did go with some companions didn't you?

[Dreven1]

To be more precise...

We use the reverse declaration, highest first initiative system.
Everyone rolls, the lowest (slowest) declares first, then the next, and the next until the top roller declares.  THEN we resolve from top down.

This makes SO much sense because faster players actually SEE who is doing what before they get to declare.  This has worked for 1.5 years now and it seems the best way to do initiative.

HOWEVER, we ran into a dilemma last week.  I have a player that (If attacked) has instant spells which counteract an attack (-25 or -50 to the attacker).  And this player is a melee type but has these defensive spells.

Since we declare slowest first (this only happens when the player loses initiative) then he doesn?t know what to use for initiative... his QU for melee or his PR for instant spells. 

Since a player doesn?t know what is going to happen to them until all the declarations are made, this makes him deciding what to use for initiative a "catch 22".

If he isn?t attacked he will use his slower initiative QU bonus and attack.  If he is attacked he wants to use his PR bonus (because of his quick thinking) and instant cast an instant spell on his initiative.

We don?t have a separate "phase" or whatever for instant spells because we believe that your QU or realm stat is what allows you the reaction and therefore you can only declare on that number.

The crux is the player simply doesn?t know which one to use since he has two different numbers for two different types of initiative (instant spell or melee).

E.g. Skelly has a -4 init, player 1 has a +4 and super player 2 has a +12

everyone rolls.  everyone gets a 10.

Skelly's total is 6 (10-4), Player 1 has 14 (10+4) and Player 2 has 22 (10+12)

SKELLY DECLARES FIRST - Skelly states that he is attacking Player 1.
Player 1 declares second - since he sees that the skelly is attacking he parries.
Player 2 declares third - sincehe sees that the skelly and player 1 are dancing he decides on a full attack on skelly!

Now, resolution.

Player 2 full attack on skelly
Player 1 full parry and awaits the attack from the skelly
Skelly attacks (if still alive)

this is an awesome system (it is a bit slower but WELL worth it!

Make sense?

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Given the fuller explanation of your use of the init system, I am going to change the advice I gave up above, as it makes no sense in light of how you accomplish initiative.

First of all, the realm stats, on their own, have absolutely no relation to how "quick thinking" a character is, and especially presence. Presence is a force of personality, not how quickly one thinks.

Also, casting spells STILL require physical actions (even instantaneous ones), and thus quickness would still be involved.

Reasoning, on the other hand, could be considered a measure of mental acuity.

If I could change how Initiative worked, I would make it based on the average of Quickness and  Reasoning (or perhaps create a table that generates an initiative bonus based on the total of the stats (plus any racial mods - but not the stat mods themselves).

The combination of the stats then work together as a measure of how quickly the character interprets and responds to stimula (i.e. reaction time), and this would most definitely better suit the way you handle initiative (and only require 1 initiative bonus, and it wouldn't be dependent upon a single stat).

[Dreven1]

Thank you for the post!

I was thinking of another way... have everyone declare from lowest to highest and before resolving add a "instant" roll.  So if anyone has instants they simply compete with other instants and resolve that "group" then resolve the normal group.

Its the only fair option I see... its cheesy but this might work.  The drawback is longer initiative resolution and instant spell casters get the "see whats happening" first advantage (which I still dont like).

[GrumpyOldFart]

Reasoning, on the other hand, could be considered a measure of mental acuity.
If I could change how Initiative worked, I would make it based on the average of Quickness and  Reasoning (or perhaps create a table that generates an initiative bonus based on the total of the stats (plus any racial mods - but not the stat mods themselves).
The combination of the stats then work together as a measure of how quickly the character interprets and responds to stimula (i.e. reaction time), and this would most definitely better suit the way you handle initiative (and only require 1 initiative bonus, and it wouldn't be dependent upon a single stat).

I was thinking something similar based on QU/IN rather than QU/RE. But the reasoning behind either or both works exactly the same. Since IN and RE are the bonus stats for Perception/Awareness skills, they'd be the ones that affect your speed and accuracy in assessing incoming data. I think maybe I was considering IN because I see RE as working in the forebrain as part of conscious decision making, and IN as working in the subconscious and being nearly automatic, like "muscle memory" to a fighter. And I've had many an SCA fighter tell me, "If you have to think about it, you're too slow and you're about to die."

On the other hand, using IN would quite definitely put Channeling spellcasters at an advantage. But then, you could also make the point that it's not unreasonable for the Gods to have initiative on EVERYONE, ALWAYS.

*snicker*

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

I had originally considered including Intuition as a third stat in the mix. Intuition would reflect how well one understands and can predict the unfolding of the situation (not visions of the future, just a feel for the way things are going)

Also, Reasoning does not have to mean active thinking/evaluating data. It is something that could/would be happening  all of the time, regardless of whether a person is cognizant of it or not.

[sunwolf]

Interesting I haven't seen anyone use the Reverse declaration system for initiative since the last time I ran DC Heroes

[Marc R]

(Try blind/hidden declarations, it leads to major funnies)

That pattern makes it rather aggressively biased in favor of fast people. . .are OB/DB splits also made knowing your init order in advance?

[GrumpyOldFart]

Also, Reasoning does not have to mean active thinking/evaluating data. It is something that could/would be happening  all of the time, regardless of whether a person is cognizant of it or not.

Good point. That and Intuition already has plenty of skills that it applies to stat bonus on, and Reasoning and Memory are pretty much the redheaded stepchildren of the 10 stats. So yeah, it's nice to find more ways in which they apply.

[Dreven1]

I like the posts above! 

Rasyr and Grumpy, excellent points about Reasoning! this would fit nicely in the initiative system we have (reverse order) if we have just one stat for both declarations then problem solved!

Additionally, I like the idea of using the "red headed stepchild" stat of Reasoning.  It isn?t a big player really compared to QU, Co, Ag, St, SD or Realm stat.

From the post about making the combat by LordMiller, yes there is more weight given to this system in "knowing" what your opponent is doing if you beat their initiative... however you MUST remember that the same is true for the CREATURES! They ALSO get to react and I have had to implement a rather elegant system for "taking the blow" for someone else... there is a thread on here about it.

Some high QU stat characters get to "see" what is going on with the battle field most of the time... however, some (like the main warrior) have a QU bonus of ZERO with his AT 16 on . . . this makes for some VERY interesting play.   Keep in mind the QU negative whilst in armor.

[Marc R]

I find that when OB/DB declarations are made after initiative, you see a lot more full OB/DB declarations. . .

In fact, I found that it had to be stepped on, hard, in terms of "One big monster" encounters.

With a crowd of mixed combatants, doesn't matter much, but VS one demon/dragon/etc it tended to make for fights that ended in one round with a dead monster as everyone who beat it's initiative went full OB. . . .making a series of +100 or more attacks that snuff the monster even with the large/super large crit tables in play.

Where in a pre-declare scenario, few PCs are willing to go full OB if there's a chance they'd loose initiative and take a huge size attack at high OB.

Not so bad in 1:1 fights of one PC vs Demon, as you might not kill it with the E crit. . .but 5-6 PCs of mid high level vs Demon, odds of getting a fatal crit approach 100%. (A creature would need to be way over the PCs power level to have a chance, and I dislike the "Drop a black reaver on the 5th level party" scenario.)

Flipping it around to make all big villians super fast would have just made them over deadly, pre-declaring OB/DB as you're supposed to was more strongly enforced, and the problem went away.

[Dreven1]

Thanks for the reply LordMiller!

It is odd but we don?t have that issue in my group.  Usually, on a monster that is say 8th or 9th level fighting a group of 5 third level Players, the 3rd level players might have a +4 to +8 initiative.  The 8th level monster will have say +8 to +10.  The monster has a better chance to get a higher initiative roll.  
Ok so everyone rolls and more often that not I beat their initiative.  Say I got a 20 and everyone else gets 5, 10, 11, 16 and 18.  
What do the players do?
The monster has a chance to see EVERYONE else?s action before they see what he does.  
Do they all go Full OB? who will he attack? do the healers start preparing healing spells to go off in 2 or 3 rounds? Does everyone go FULL PARRY to try and avoid whoever the high level monster attacks?
See my point   They don?t know...

Granted, if the mob is stupid it will simply attack the closest player (like a zombie) however if the creature has even the slightest intelligence it will try to figure out who is the weakest and go for them first (if it can reach them).  Play your creatures like the players play their characters.

Back to the scenario: everyone in my group tends to be more conservative and they would all probably go full defense, healers start preparing healing spells etc...

IF they all decided to go full OB then guess what? the creature can pick out the one Player that is closest that has no armor and "appears" weak to them.  
Sure, they might wax the creature on the first round... but if they are THAT stupid then one of them is going to get the full onslaught of the creature AND the creature goes first!

Just a suggestion that you might want to play with it more before writing it off... its a great system.  
And, after all, the GM has 549,389,824,532,987 monsters waiting in the wing to replace that monster that just got killed in the first round the players only have their one character!  

[Marc R]

With a single, big OB, physical threat monster (not one that can cast)

Any round the monster has init: All players declare "Full DB"

Any round 3-4 players have initiative on the monster, then those 3-4 declare "FULL OB" while anyone loosing initiative keeps on "Full DB". . .it's a gaurenteed winner. . .each PC can declare parry on the solo monster, so the monster can't hit them without an open ended attack roll, and it can only parry one of the PCs at a time, so everyone the monster doesn't parry will seriously own the monster with their attacks. . .the only way for the monster to hit would be if none of the 3-4 full OB attacks killed it before it got to go.

Not so big a problem in a mixed brawl, but it turns a many-on-one combat into an execution, barring a lottery winning lucky moment. . . Except with something fairly stupid, like a bear, where you can bait it to attack one person while someone else rear strikes it full OB, you rarely get the chance to play the "You go Full OB, while I go full DB" trick on opponents.

And if that were the house rule. . .I'd expect all the PCs to have placed quickness high up their stat selections. . .and a lot of those big melee monsters are slow as heck.

This also means that the same logic would play in reverse, it's one PC vs a group of attackers.

Shrug, if it works for you, and it's fun, I can't say it's wrong, I can only say it's not right for me.

[Dreven1]

No problem LordMiller, I agree... its all in how your players like the system.  I have not had that many problems with it, this thread being the only real exception! 

I think I have resolved the issue.  I am going to either choose one initiative stat (RE) or an average of three (QU/RE/SD) and play with that (leaning toward the 3)

I am going to have the players vote on which way they would like it.  I also had a VERY interesting e-mail by one of my players about developing a skill for initiative.  I won?t take credit for it, it?s pretty ingenious, but I remember something from a post a while back (6-8 months??) that cautioned about the pit falls of a skill you could develop for initiative.  I requested that he post it on another thread!

So, here is he synopsis of my ruling:
Initiative = RE (or RE/QU/SD divided by 3) + 2d10

thank you all for the input to this thread!!! Great topic!