Topic: Armor stacking?

[Sewercop]

What is the offcial rules for stacking armor in rm 2 ed\classic?
Someone with at 20 plate and at 12 skin beneath? or some similar to that..

[Cory Magel]

Armors are already considered to be what you are calling "Stacked".  Check out the descriptions of armors in the rule book.  For example, chain mail will often have a layer of padding and soft leather under it.  So I don't believe there are any rules of doubling up and, personally, I don't think it should be allowed.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

RoCoVI, section 3.3, page 20, gives a suggestion about how to handle armour combining.

So I don't believe there are any rules of doubling up and, personally, I don't think it should be allowed.

This is especially useful for handling creatures with a natural AT, on which one adds additional armour, though.

[Cory Magel]

I'm an RMSS/RMFRP user (and one of the reasons are because in RM2 power creep was a problem if you simply implemented all options rules). I probably have that book, but it's packed in the garage somewhere (just moved).

So... just a guess, but is it talking about combining different sets of armor into a single set of armor that would then just use one of the existing types as a result?  If RM2 created a rule where you essentially get the benefits of two different types of armor I would definitely call that power creep.

When someone wants to 'combine' armors I would simply figure out what type of armor they end up with.  And if they REALLY want something 'better' than AT20 and started layering over or under what that is described as then they would end up with some serious penalties (essentially it wouldn't be worth it).

[yammahoper]

What is the offcial rules for stacking armor in rm 2 ed\classic?
Someone with at 20 plate and at 12 skin beneath? or some similar to that..

You want to find the old Arms Companion.  The rules on armor in it are what you seek.

[Sewercop]

RoCoVI, section 3.3, page 20, gives a suggestion about how to handle armour combining.

So I don't believe there are any rules of doubling up and, personally, I don't think it should be allowed.

This is especially useful for handling creatures with a natural AT, on which one adds additional armour, though.

Thanks mate, that`s the one i was looking for. Been a while since i was a player.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

So... just a guess, but is it talking about combining different sets of armor into a single set of armor that would then just use one of the existing types as a result?  If RM2 created a rule where you essentially get the benefits of two different types of armor I would definitely call that power creep.

The RoCo VI rule addresses the problem of putting an armour on a creature with natural armour. I mean, let's say you have an elephant; it's AT12. Let's now suppose you use one as a war mount and give it some additional leather armour (RL, historical example, BTW). What's its resulting armour? RoCoVI's rule deals with that.

You want to find the old Arms Companion.  The rules on armor in it are what you seek.

Not exactly. The stacking armour rules in the Arms Companion deals with "mix(ing) and match(ing) parts of different armours". For instance, what happens when you use metal greaves with a leather breastplate? It is essentially the RM2's version of the Combat Companion's "Armour by the piece"... and different from with what the RoCoVI rule deals.

[Nders]

One of the express additions addresses this issue. The views presented there are easy to remember and use even if they are somewhat powerful.

[yammahoper]

Mostly these additions add up to a DB increase.  You could create armor with specific crit reduction (mythril chain reduces puncture crits by II, greater mythril chain ignores punture, etc).  Armor could reduce hits, against all attacks or specific attacks.  Full plate on top of chain for example could reduce slash crits by X.

You can even add the ole percent chance to negate a crit (helmet negates 40% of the time).

Stacking armor though really means the wearer has on a sophisticaed suit of AT XX.  A DB mod should do.  For example in the Arms Companion, additions to armor can generATE UP TO A PLUS FIFTY DB INCREASE...dam cap locks.

[Old Man]

Folks,

How do you handle DB stacking? Say I have +10M chain AT-13, a +10 DB shirt of spider silk, a ring of +10 DB and a belt of +10 DB?

40?

Old Man

[markc]

  IMHO for the items you provided chain and spider silk shirt would stack do to the nothingness of spider silk. The belt I would 1/3 the bonus and the ring also 1/3. See below.


  In general I take the main item armor at full bonus, helms provide 1/2 DB and all others 1/3 DB. Now there may be some special cases where a part may add more to the total bonus or AT. For example boots while walking over caltrops, etc.
  IMHO it has worked very well in my game and has kept things under control. I also do not stick to the normal +5 progression instead do anything in the total range. I stay away from items such as rings of protection unless they are very powerful or I simply cut the bonus down by / by 5. So you ring above in my game would only provide a +2 DB unless it was a very potent magic item or more powerful.

Others I have heard do the primary at full bonus the next at 1/2, the third at 1/3..... x at 1/x. This helps if you have lots of bonus items in your game.

Also rmember you can reset the zero point materials in you game. I think you might be doing Grayhawlk  IIRC so I would reset the zero point to soft iron or hard iron. This will keep the numbers smaller.

MDC

[VladD]

I'd rule the above example in the following way (and it's a bit D&D inspired, but I think it is more to how it works in reality)

the AT 13 and the shirt are both "enchanted armor DB bonus" and if worn together they both provide +10 armor DB so it doesn't stack. In my own games I'd allow like "construction armor DB bonus" to stack with other types, such "enchanted armor DB bonus" but I wouldn't be handing out any AT 20 +20(Constuction) suits ever, so they can't be enchanted on top of that (I actually have some more rules in place about this, but I won't discuss them here)
As for the belt and the ring: IF they are both "Enchanted forcefield DB bonus" then they wouldn't stack, but if the belt was "Enchanted Dodging DB bonus" then they would. Of course it doesn't really matter with such items how they are constructed, or from what kind of material they are made so such bonus aren't part of the equation.

In my house rules you have several types of bonuses available on the available magic items:

Armor (pieces)

Armor material DB
Armor construction DB
Armor magical DB
Armor Dodge DB
Armor forcefield AT
Armor forcefield DB

Weapon

Weapon material OB
Weapon construction OB
Weapon magical guidance OB (is the standard type)
Weapon magical hardness OB (is rare type: "strikes as Mithril will add a certain amount of OB and hit large creatures on Mithril table)

Shield

Shield material DB
Shield material OB
Shield construction DB
Shield construction OB
Shield magical DB
Shield magical guidance OB

Other (ring, belt, head band, glove)

Other item Guidance OB
Other item Dodge DB
Other item Force field DB
Other item force field AT

Notes

Each of the item classes above, apart from other items, is supposed to apply to one statistic of a user: so wielding 2 magical swords doesn't add both the OB's to TWC, just each bonus to each separate attack. One shield adds to DB, unless it is used to attack with, only one armor can be worn, etc.
Other items, on the other hand, when ones owns more than one, would be allowed to stack on a single skill, if the bonus types are different, and when the body locations are different. So a ring of Dodge DB +10, a nose ring of Force field DB +10, an ear ring of Force field AT 16, a high steel (+10 mat) dwarven made (+7 con) chain shirt of (+17 nm tot), yields an of AT 16 and +37 DB.

It should be noted that the bonuses with different names keep stacking when on the same item. These bonuses, unless the PC's have excellent resources, will remain in check, such as the Construction bonus will not go beyond +5 when made by normal humans, +7 for dwarves and +9 for High elves.

The cases where items are worn/ used with the same type of bonus: the highest applies. Example: Armor AT 10 protects as AT 12 and a head band of AT 4: no stacking of the AT's, just the best one applies.

The magical bonusses, added by Alchemists are +5, and never more (unless you are casting lvl 50+ spells) so a lvl 20 alchemist wanting to make a +20 item, must have +15 non magical item on hand to do so. Such an item cannot be made from a magical material, such as mithril and better, since they are already considered enchanted.

Shields are not considered armor and they enhance a different type of defense (more like cover) so the shield bonuses and the armor bonuses stack with eachother. The OB bonuses come into play only when the shield is used to attack with.

Reasoning in this way implies that a maximally enhanced item, without resorting to mithril and better, is a Katana (+5) made from White alloy (+20), Elvish construction (+9) enchanted by a lvl 50 Alchemist (+5) as a +39 weapon (+34 with the Armory). This is almost impossible to make as you need to make weapon smithing skill check against: katana (very hard -20), +9 construction (-180), white alloy (-20) = -220. The -180 is derived from my crafting house rules where for every 20 you beat 101 (success) roll you get +1 construction bonus, capped for humans at +5, dwarves at +7 and High elves at +9. This ensures that usually such an item cannot be in the hands of a low lvl character.

Although this seems rather generous to the average GM, but I'm really not handing out any of this in great quantities. Only when a party decides to pool all their items on a single character will they get anywhere these results that I mentioned. I keep it in check by just handing out items with normal bonuses, but I break them down to the players in more interesting ways. So a +10 magical sword might become a  human excellently wrought (+2 con), Low ferrous steel (+3 mat), +5 magical broad sword.

Game on!

[Old Man]

I'd rule the above example in the following way (and it's a bit D&D inspired, but I think it is more to how it works in reality)
....

In my house rules you have several types of bonuses available on the available magic items:

...

Game on!

Interesting. I don't have that many armor bonuses in my game. Only 2. What I call Armor effect (Armor, magicked clothes, cloaks, helms) and Field effect (rings, belts, circlets and magic items giving DB via forcefield like effects).

Multiple Armor items given decreasing returns. (I like the 1x, 1/2x, 1/3x as defined earlier). Same for Multiple Field items. Then add Armor total and Field total.

Ciao,
Old Man

[VladD]

hey Old man

I would use the diminishing return system as well when I wouldn't already have implemented the house rules stated above. One little flaw in the diminishing returns is that in theory any item would always at least give +1 bonus so my players would be tempted to construct armors from any and all magical stuff that they'd find. with higher levels this would be more of a problem when  they are stacking plenty of +20 gear. (the tenth item would still grant +2 DB) and I'm still seeing some loopholes in dodge items and Qu enhancing gear. Each of which would become a whole class of their own, with a new diminishing return track.

of course it would be easy to nerf that loophole with house rules

VladD

[Old Man]

VladD,

Once under 1, I'd round down. That should help with the "wear everything" approach.

Regards,
Old Man