Topic: SM: P Robotics Manual (RM) 20.6 Starting Languages Part 1

[snrdg051306]

Okay, I'm kind of lost about the Robotics Manual Steps 20.6 p. 60 Starting languages, 20.15 Standard Options p. 64 and 20.16 Totaling the Points p. 65.

The design example constructs an Espionage and Infiltration Android. Step 20.6 Starting Languages p. 50 states that:

To program an android with starting languages, choose the linguistic software option ins Step 15 as a standard option. All standard languages can be programed into an android template, and more languages can be purchased as custom options for individual androids

Referring to Step 20. 15 p. 64

Standard options are automatically installed in every android in a given template, regardless of the wishes of the buyer. To choose a standard option when a template is created, the player (or GM) must pay the standard option cost.

The second Example for the design on p. 65, states that

three linguistic software options (15)

20.16 Totaling the Points shows the list of components that where purchased in the design process. From the Standard Options list on p. 65:

3 Linguistic Software Options
   Native Tongue .....S6/W8
   Enemy Tongue .....S10/W10
   Third Tongue .......S4/W6
   Fourth Tongue .....S4/W6
   Fifth Tongue ........S0/W6     15 pts

By my count there are 5 linguistic software packages. The Standard Options rule from Step 20.15 has a cost per the Options Summary Table RM-20.16 pp. 66 - 67 of 5 points for a single linguistic program. Under  Standard Options the linguistic software cost is 5 languages x 5 points = 25 points.

I've checked both Defendi's site and SM errata to see if there was any information about the issue of the number of Standard Linguistic Software Options purchased and the associated costs without success.

Any help is greatly appreciated and will get me back to my VM spreadsheet project.

Tom R

[markc]

  If you look at the linguistic package it grants 20 ranks for languages. It does not say you have to spend them on just one language but you can split the ranks among any language skills. This option is listed on page 89 of the SM:P RM.


MDC

[snrdg051306]

Morning MarkC,

  If you look at the linguistic package it grants 20 ranks for languages. It does not say you have to spend them on just one language but you can split the ranks among any language skills. This option is listed on page 89 of the SM:P RM.

MDC

Thanks for leading me to the right page and I didn't connect the text since I was trying to come up with the standard languages at the same time.

Unfortunately, as Mr. R. A. Heinlein said in one of his books, I'm not "gorking" how the whole thing works.

One linguistic software package has a cost of 5 points and the template has 5 standard languages installed the total package cost is 5 x 5 = 25. With the 20 ranks/points granted for starting languages the final point cost, I'm probably in error here, is 25 - 20 = 5.

If the 20 Starting language rank points has to be split between speaking and writing per the, again I don't have a warm and fuzzy feeling about this, Character Generation process in SM: P then the point cost is really off.

I'm even more confused on how Starting Language works and I'll admit I still don't have a clue about Allowed Adolescent Development for developing characters in either the Robotics Manual and Spacemaster: Privateers.

Can you or someone else explain the operation to me in simple terms that a poor old retired service member can understand?

Again thanks for the reply and time spent keeping me as honest as you can?

Tom R

[markc]

  Starting Languages: Are defined by the racial description page (built by the GM or by ICE as an official source). The language ranks have to be split up between spoken and written languages.


  For Example: In Southern California you might have starting language options of English and Spanish where as if you live in Northern Washington you might have English and French and if you live in San Francisco, CA and go to the Mandarin School you might have the options of English, Chinese, Mandarin and Spanish.


 Does that make sense?
MDC

[snrdg051306]

MarkC the answer is maybe and probably not, but here goes one more try.

The SM: P RM Linguistic Software options has a cost points of 5 and price tag of ¢5,000 per option installed. Per SM: P RM p. 89 the software grants 20 ranks to be split among the speak/write capabilities of the starting languages.

Looking at the 20.16 Totaling the Points list I see 5 standard linguistic software options with a total point cost of 5 x 5 = 25, not 3 linguistic programs, with a total of a total of 60 rank points split between speak and write.

So I guess the the is I can't seem to put the two together so that I can design an AI or android.

I think you're going to have to use the 40-lb sledge hammer on this one;-)

Tom R

[markc]

  Looking at 20.16 under Standard Options you see 5 standard linguistic options (SLO)? I see 5 languages with 60 ranks between them.
  I can see how you would see 1 linguistic option as a single language but that is not how the book portrays the option to be. IMHO the SLO is based on the RMSS/FRP spend 1 background option for 20 language ranks.
  I guess you can also see the SLO as a DB with so much space and you can fill that space with what ever you want. So you can create a DB that is optimized with 1 language, yes and you can create in that space a series of smaller DB's that focus on many languages instead of just one.


Does that help?
MDC

[snrdg051306]

Afternoon MarkC,

I may be seeing the light, but just to be sure here goes another attempt.

A single linguistic program has 20 units that are split between the speak/write functions, has a build cost of 5 points, and a price tag of ¢5,000.

Which is why the SM: P RM example has and Enemy Language S10/W10, right?

Unfortunately, I still don't get how a count of 5 language packages has only a 15 point build cost.  SM: P RM 20.6 p. 60 says that all starting languages choose the linguistic software in Step 20. 15 on p. 64. Step 20.15 states that standard options chosen during template creation must pay the standard option cost. To me this means that all five languages selected as standard options and starting languages cost 5 build points and ¢5,000 each for a total of 25 build points and ¢25,000.

Hopefully, I've got the linguistic package right. Now if I can only understand how the costs (build points and price tag) I'll be able to move forward.

Thanks again for th help,

Tom R

[markc]

The SM: P RM Linguistic Software options has a cost points of 5 and price tag of ¢5,000 per option installed. Per SM: P RM p. 89 the software grants 20 ranks to be split among the speak/write capabilities of the starting languages.

Looking at the 20.16 Totaling the Points list I see 5 standard linguistic software options with a total point cost of 5 x 5 = 25, not 3 linguistic programs, with a total of a total of 60 rank points split between speak and write.
Tom R

 First does the Robot start with all of the languages listed? Yes he does he does not pick one language form the list he/it gets all of them.


  Where are you getting the 5 Linguistic Software Options from? I do not see that anywhere on the page. Reading the sidebar notes it says again it selects 3 Linguistic Software Options. It is also listed in the standard option so all units start with that option.
 Looking at page 70 for Adol Skills the Esp Android gets 2 ranks in the Comm Category and gets to place 8 ranks in its Starting Languages. The example does not say where those extra 8 Adol Lang ranks go as it is for the player to decide. Once they decide on where they want to place the extra ranks they will have at least 68 ranks in spoken and written languages. They can if they want spend their hobby ranks on additional languages which will/can increase the rank count in languages.


Does that clear up the fog?
MDC   

[snrdg051306]

Hello MarkC,

I am following the design example as documented in SM: P RM 20.0 Android Character Templates pp. 58 - 65.

Step 20.6 directs the designer programming starting languages by selecting the linguistic software option in step 15 as a standard option and that

all standard languages can be programmed into an android template, and more languages can be purchased as custom options for individual androids.

None of the above information tells me that a single linguistic software program allows an android/robot to speak all standard languages.

Since Step 20.6 didn't have an example I flipped to Step 20.15 Options on p. 64 and read through Standard Options. When creating a template, which the design example is doing, the player or GM must pay the standard option cost.

While reading through Step 20.15 I saw the itemized list in Step 20.16 Totaling the Points on p. 65 the list shows the following:

Standard Options:
  3 Linguistic Software Options
     Native Tongue .....S6/W8
     Enemy Tongue .....S10/W10
     Third Tongue .......S4/W6
     Fourth Tongue .....S4/W6
     Fifth Tongue ........S0/W6     15 pts

Based on my understanding that 1 tongue = 1 language = 1 linguistic software. There are 5 languages not three as stated above or in the text of the second example on p. 65.

Please let me know which step in Section 20 references Step 21.4 Starting (Adolescence) Skill Ranks p. 68 and the table on p. 70. I haven't found any reference, but then I'm hung-up on Step 20.6

Looks like I have a block for languages in SM: P since Defendi isn't having any better luck with me on another topic. I want to thank both of you for all the effort and my apologies for being dense.

Tom R

[Defendi]

Did I say somewhere that one tongue = one language = one piece of linguistic software?  That doesn't seem like something I'd write, since it would conflict so badly with the way things work in RM/SM.  Let me know and I'll see if it needs to be errataed.

[snrdg051306]

No Defendi you did not write one tongue = one language = one piece of linguistic software. The snippet of text is how I simplified

my understanding for the linguistic software option.

My understanding comes from how I interpret the text on SM: P RM p. 86, a small knowledge of software programming and handling variety of software, one being the Rosetta Stone language application. The programming classes showed that I was better at documenting the process than coding. Of course the other side of the coin showed that the more complex the program, say one that teaches a language, the more coding that is needed. One of the tasks associated with handling the software was the need to verify programs system requirements matched the with the ones on the computer. A single Rosetta Stone language program level, IIRC, has a system requirement of 600MB of hard drive memory. A full software package for a single language of 5 levels, the last time I handled one, needed 3GB of hard drive space and 1 GB of RAM. Rosetta Stone uses the same basic program for each language package they produce, but the program has modification for each language as needed.

Based on my background and what I think I know about the SM: P universe I can't image a a single linguistic program handling multiple languages. Of course I could be in error on this as well.

I have no problem with how the physical components exceed what we know today.

Tom R

[markc]

Tom;
 I do not think I can explain it another way. I will try and think of a better way to explain it and then post it.
MDC

[Defendi]

Yeah, Thom.  With all due respect if you're going to add your own limitations into the rules and stick to them even when we tell you otherwise, I can't think of any way to explain it either.  Sorry.

[snrdg051306]

I'm going to try starting from the top again breaking down the process I get from the example.

So far I know that during the building process an android/robot template using the example provided per Step 20.6 is

1) I can select all of the standard languages as starting languages.

2) Programming one or more language requires the selection of the linguistic software option per step 15 as a standard option.

3) More languages can be purchased as custom options for individual androids/robots.

No example is provided so I went to step 20.15 Options and read through the text under the header or Standard Options:

4) Standard options are going to be the same on every android/robot built using the template and can't be altered by a buyer.

5) When creating a template the player/designer must pay the standard option costs listed in the Android Option Table RM-20.16.

Looking on p. 65 the second example states that three linguistic software options are selected for the standard Espionage unit.  Looking at the break down of the point costs under Step 20.16 I see the following:.

Standard Options:
  3 Linguistic Software Options
     Native Tongue .....S6/W8
     Enemy Tongue .....S10/W10
     Third Tongue .......S4/W6
     Fourth Tongue .....S4/W6
     Fifth Tongue ........S0/W6     15 pts

Q1. Does tongue mean language?

If the answer to Q1 is yes then I see five languages selected as standard options for the template in the design example.

If I follow the rules as I have outlined above then I should pay the cost for 5 linguistic software options.

Q2. If the answer is no, then what does tongue mean?

If the fourth and fifth tongues are custom options, per Table RM-20.16, and not standard they have no cost.

Unfortunately, I have not read anywhere in the text that the last two tongues are custom.

Poor Thom, being battered again for my sins. Thanks Thom and my apologies having your name taken in vain. Also my apologies for not getting what MarkC and Defendi are trying to explain.

Tom R

[Defendi]

Sure tongue means language, but there's nowhere in the rules where that means anything for the purpose of buying these packages.  You're forcing importance on it it doesn't have.  You've been told (by marc I think) you buy by ranks but you keep adding other restrictions that aren't there.  I suggest you make it a house rule that you do it your way and move on.  It will make it impossible to buy a language at less than 10 ranks of course, but if that's the way you want to do it, I'm totally in favor of it.

[snrdg051306]

The discusion is now closed since I'm not able to get how the system works. My apologies wasting the time of the members of the forum.

Tom R

[Defendi]

Okay.  Sorry we couldn't come to an understanding.

[snrdg051306]

Defendi we did come to an understanding make this discussion a house rule and move on.

Tom R

[snrdg051306]

Tom;
 I do not think I can explain it another way. I will try and think of a better way to explain it and then post it.
MDC

Thank you for the effort you and Defendi have put forth in trying to clarify the Starting Languages rules found in the Robotics Manual for me. I will look forward to the post if you decide to do so, considering I've given up at this time.

Respectfully,

[snrdg051306]

Update:

Thanks to MarkC I now understand how Step 20.6 links with Step 20.15 and the numbers in Step 20.16.

20.6 Selects the starting languages used.
20.15 Starting languages are programed into a linguistic software package.  The programming has 20 units that are allocated between speech and writing/reading(?) of the selected language. The SM:P RM manual example has the E & I android being programmed with five languages. The first linguistic software gives the android the ability to speak/write in the creator's standard language and to write in another common language. A second linguistic package is purchased that is devoted to the Enemies language. In the third linguistic software package purchased two languages are combined giving the android, say at an intermediate level of fluency in them.


At least that is what I get from the example that MarkC provided off the forums.

If I'm still out in a field somewhere MarkC is not at fault, nor is Thom responsible for my being dense.;-)

Thanks again to MarkC and Defendi for providing assistance, even if they have to use various size sledge hammers and/or wrecking balls to accomplish the task.