Author Topic: Rolemaster Issues  (Read 17245 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline runequester

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 171
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Rolemaster Issues
« Reply #60 on: February 22, 2009, 11:46:50 AM »
I'll definately use AT2 as "normal adventuring gear" for our upcoming game. AT1 will be "travelling light". Clothes, your sword and nothing else.

Offline Elton Robb

  • Revered Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,206
  • OIC Points +0/-0
  • Master of Atlantis
    • The Atlantis Blog
Re: Rolemaster Issues
« Reply #61 on: February 22, 2009, 02:19:27 PM »
I think they are the some problems that you read frequently in the forum.

They are principal about combat and spell casting.

Character generation/advancement is very good, perhaps a bit slow. I'd like to see some official options to remove XP and levels.
Removing profession bonuses. I think that skill costs is already accounting more expertise.

About combat:

Fumble not tied to competence of combatants.

Something wrong with the Swashbuckling skill?

Quote
Criticals are too random. An "A" critical can kill you with a bit of luck. (I like realism, but dispatching PC randomly isn't a good choice)

I love the randomness of the Critical Strike system.  It keeps Rolemaster unique. Without it, Rolemaster would not be Rolemaster.

Quote
Too simple to kill very impressive monster, doing super-roll.

Like a dragon?  Why not?  There are some very good examples of people killing impressive animals.  Saltwater Crocodiles in Australia are very impressive.  Yet they were being killed and their numbers depleted in the first half of the 20th Century (and they were killing and eating humans before).

Another impressive animal is the reticulated python.  Longest snake in the world, they could attack and eat humans if given a chance.  Finally, there are living, but still cryptid, dinosaurs.

Quote
No locational damage.

you don't need them.  If you have a good GM/DM, you can simulate Location damage by use of the Moving Manuever Table (Rolemaster's core table).

Quote
No dodge.

D&D doesn't have parry, but that doesn't stop us.  Parrying in Rolemaster represents dodging, footwork, and parrying.

Quote
No shield skill, only a flat bonus.
There is a shield bash skill.

Quote
RMC presents rules for breakage insanely complex (how do they worked out them...  ::))

Actually, they are quite simple.

Quote
No defense roll. Instead of putting a bonus in defense I'd like an active defense. This way combat is more dynamic (a double fumble!!!!  :D)
Weapons table are diverse but similar. Doing an "E" critical to a naked warrior with a dagger is the some sa doing an "E" critical with a Great Lance at full gallop wiht a Heavy Barded, Heavy War Horse  :-[. Difference is hits, but not too much. This change, a little, with higher AT20, but depends on the weapons.
Etc.

Parrying should be okay in doing this.  you don't need am active defense roll.

Are you sure you like playing Rolemaster?  You sound as if you are better off playing a different game. :)
Personal Web Portfolio:
http://eltonatlantean.wix.com/portfolio
Deviant Art: http://atlantean6.deviantart.com/
Renderosity: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/browse.php?user_id=561541

Offline rdanhenry

  • Sage
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,588
  • OIC Points +0/-0
  • This sentence is false.
Re: Rolemaster Issues
« Reply #62 on: February 23, 2009, 12:39:39 AM »
Like a dragon?  Why not?  There are some very good examples of people killing impressive animals.  Saltwiter Crocodiles in Australia are very impressive.  Yet they were being killed and their numbers depleted in the first half of the 20th Century (and they were killing and eating humans before).

That cracked me up. That's one of the goofiest profanity filter effects yet. Someone should write up the Saltwiter Crocodile's stats.
Rolemaster: When you absolutely, positively need to have a chance of tripping over an imaginary dead turtle.

Offline RandalThor

  • Sage
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,116
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Rolemaster Issues
« Reply #63 on: February 23, 2009, 01:11:01 AM »
They will definately have a +30 racial bonus on the Retort Skill.
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Scratch that. Power attracts the corruptible.

Rules should not replace the brain and thinking.

giulio.trimarco

  • Guest
Re: Rolemaster Issues
« Reply #64 on: February 23, 2009, 05:16:13 AM »
Elton Robb,

your replay is made up of personal tastes and mechanical nonsense.

Offline Ecthelion

  • ICE Forum Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,497
  • OIC Points +0/-0
    • Character Gallery
Re: Rolemaster Issues
« Reply #65 on: February 23, 2009, 05:31:55 AM »
giulio, personal taste comes into play in most postings, yours as well. And please stop comments as the one above about "mechanical nonsense". There is no need to get insulting just because someone expresses an opinion which does not match with yours.

Offline Elton Robb

  • Revered Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,206
  • OIC Points +0/-0
  • Master of Atlantis
    • The Atlantis Blog
Re: Rolemaster Issues
« Reply #66 on: February 23, 2009, 05:18:19 PM »
Like a dragon?  Why not?  There are some very good examples of people killing impressive animals.  Saltwiter Crocodiles in Australia are very impressive.  Yet they were being killed and their numbers depleted in the first half of the 20th Century (and they were killing and eating humans before).

That cracked me up. That's one of the goofiest profanity filter effects yet. Someone should write up the Saltwiter Crocodile's stats.

Saltwiter Crocodile! HAH!  I feel silly enough to do it. ;)

ITS SALT WATER CROCODILE!!!
Personal Web Portfolio:
http://eltonatlantean.wix.com/portfolio
Deviant Art: http://atlantean6.deviantart.com/
Renderosity: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/browse.php?user_id=561541

Offline GoblynByte

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 533
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Rolemaster Issues
« Reply #67 on: March 06, 2009, 08:41:21 AM »
I think RM is very well done and constructed.  There is only one point that keeps me 'off the boat,' as it were.  My only (personal) issue with RM is one that I've brought up before.  The single roll hit-damage mechanic is very good, but my issue is specifically with the way strength and agility are averaged (power and accuracy) to figure the amount of damage done.  It works fine when dealing with narrower margins - when strength and agility aren't too far apart - but I think it starts to break down when dealing with huge differences in either, like a massive troll that can't hit the broad side of a barn but will completely demolish the barn in one hit if he does manage to strike it out of simple luck.

I think the existing mechanic does work well in the other direction, though.  An attacker with low strength but high accuracy is going to hit more often, but they're just not going to be able to manage much damage unless they roll a critical.  In other words, simple hits are going to cause light scratches and 'nickle and dime' the foe to death.  But if they can get that blade into the sweet spot and slash a vein they'll take the target down in one blow.  But in the larger, stronger attackers the idea of causing light bruises to 'nickle and dime' the target to death seems...unlikely.

For me it boils down to this: I don't believe in grazing blows from a troll.  A troll either misses or turns his target into paste.  And the concept of parrying an attack from a troll is simply foreign to me.  Dodge?  Sure.  Parry?  Paste.

Note: All opinions.

Note: I use the troll as an example of an extreme of massive strength but low hand-eye coordination.  No offense was meant towards trolls or their kin.  The same could be said for any creature with great strength but traditionally low accuracy.
A man said to the universe:
"Sir I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"The fact has not created in me
A sense of obligation."
--Stephen Crain

Offline GoblynByte

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 533
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Rolemaster Issues
« Reply #68 on: March 06, 2009, 08:45:27 AM »
Oh, by the way, I think HARP has a good fix for this because there is a line between hit and miss.  A troll could have a very low OB meaning that he may not get higher than 1, but if he does than the 'weapon size bonus' is there to really send him over the top.  So, if that mechanic were taken advantage of, he wouldn't hit too often, but when he did he'd rarely get that "I've seen kittens hit harder. 1 Hit" result on the critical table.
A man said to the universe:
"Sir I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"The fact has not created in me
A sense of obligation."
--Stephen Crain

Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

  • Inactive
  • *
  • Posts: 0
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Rolemaster Issues
« Reply #69 on: March 06, 2009, 10:12:16 AM »
I think that the only real way to solve this issue would be to separate out the attack roll from the damage roll.

For example, if you make the attack a Medium maneuver (modified by foe's DB and using quickness and agility as the stats used with OB here), then you could have clean hits or misses.

Then IF a hit IS called for, you roll on the attack table (and add in mods for strength and a mod based on how well the attack roll was (i.e. take the total attack roll (OB + roll - DB) and subtract 100. If the result is positive (and it should be in order to succeed as a medium maneuver), you add it to the damage roll.

Example:
You: OB 85 Broadsword (St bonus = +20)
Foe: DB 50 (AT7)

You roll and get a 77. You add in your OB and subtract the foe's DB for a total of  112 (77 + 85 -50 = 112), which means that you hit the foe. Ok, now you roll for damage, you roll a 92 and add in your 20 strength bonus, and your +12 from a good hit. This gives you a total of 124 (92 + 20 + 12 = 124). Looking up the result on the Broadsword attack table gives you a 16DS. You then rol for the critical normally and apply the damage


Yes, this DOES mean that you can do zero damage. That would just mean that the damage was turned/absorbed by the armor itself. But it would serve to reduce the associations between attack rolls and damage....





Offline Ecthelion

  • ICE Forum Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,497
  • OIC Points +0/-0
    • Character Gallery
Re: Rolemaster Issues
« Reply #70 on: March 06, 2009, 10:15:23 AM »
Oh, by the way, I think HARP has a good fix for this because there is a line between hit and miss.  A troll could have a very low OB meaning that he may not get higher than 1, but if he does than the 'weapon size bonus' is there to really send him over the top.  So, if that mechanic were taken advantage of, he wouldn't hit too often, but when he did he'd rarely get that "I've seen kittens hit harder. 1 Hit" result on the critical table.
OTOH the added weapon size bonus usually leads to only a few hits/stuns/bleeding etc. more with the HARP core combat system. E.g. where a normal crush attack would do only 1 hit, the same result (01) from a huge attack does 9 hits. A result for 51 for a normal weapon on the same table yields 15 hits, 1 stun and a -10 to activity, while from a huge attack it would result in 19 hits, 2 stuns and -15. Of course the attack size can also make the difference between a fatal critical and one yielding "only" a major wound, but it is far from making the difference between a bruise and the opponent being "paste".

IMHO RM has a quite good means of handling damage from such giant creatures with high strength and low accuracy and this is the damage multiplier. E.g. most of the giants in Creatures & Monsters have such a multiplier, so that e.g. an attack table entry 26E would instead become 78E with a x3 multiplier. But this multiplier is rarely used, perhaps too seldom, e.g. not for trolls or dragons.

Offline GoblynByte

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 533
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Rolemaster Issues
« Reply #71 on: March 06, 2009, 11:46:22 AM »
Oh, by the way, I think HARP has a good fix for this because there is a line between hit and miss.  A troll could have a very low OB meaning that he may not get higher than 1, but if he does than the 'weapon size bonus' is there to really send him over the top.  So, if that mechanic were taken advantage of, he wouldn't hit too often, but when he did he'd rarely get that "I've seen kittens hit harder. 1 Hit" result on the critical table.
OTOH the added weapon size bonus usually leads to only a few hits/stuns/bleeding etc. more with the HARP core combat system. E.g. where a normal crush attack would do only 1 hit, the same result (01) from a huge attack does 9 hits. A result for 51 for a normal weapon on the same table yields 15 hits, 1 stun and a -10 to activity, while from a huge attack it would result in 19 hits, 2 stuns and -15. Of course the attack size can also make the difference between a fatal critical and one yielding "only" a major wound, but it is far from making the difference between a bruise and the opponent being "paste".

But if you take the difference between a medium and huge attack you can go as much as 4 steps up the critical table which can account for a LOT.

Quote
IMHO RM has a quite good means of handling damage from such giant creatures with high strength and low accuracy and this is the damage multiplier. E.g. most of the giants in Creatures & Monsters have such a multiplier, so that e.g. an attack table entry 26E would instead become 78E with a x3 multiplier. But this multiplier is rarely used, perhaps too seldom, e.g. not for trolls or dragons.
Wait...really?  There's a damage multiplier?  I never even saw that!  That would fix the problem right there!  I know there was a "resounding strength" ability in HARP that basically doubled hits delivered, but I didn't know that existed in RM.  How did I miss that?  Maybe it was just in creatures I never used.  Well that's an easy enough fix right there.  Just apply that trait to any monster the GM feels has that overwhelming strength.
A man said to the universe:
"Sir I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"The fact has not created in me
A sense of obligation."
--Stephen Crain

Offline GoblynByte

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 533
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Rolemaster Issues
« Reply #72 on: March 06, 2009, 11:55:56 AM »
I think that the only real way to solve this issue would be to separate out the attack roll from the damage roll.

For example, if you make the attack a Medium maneuver (modified by foe's DB and using quickness and agility as the stats used with OB here), then you could have clean hits or misses.

Then IF a hit IS called for, you roll on the attack table (and add in mods for strength and a mod based on how well the attack roll was (i.e. take the total attack roll (OB + roll - DB) and subtract 100. If the result is positive (and it should be in order to succeed as a medium maneuver), you add it to the damage roll.

Example:
You: OB 85 Broadsword (St bonus = +20)
Foe: DB 50 (AT7)

You roll and get a 77. You add in your OB and subtract the foe's DB for a total of  112 (77 + 85 -50 = 112), which means that you hit the foe. Ok, now you roll for damage, you roll a 92 and add in your 20 strength bonus, and your +12 from a good hit. This gives you a total of 124 (92 + 20 + 12 = 124). Looking up the result on the Broadsword attack table gives you a 16DS. You then rol for the critical normally and apply the damage


Yes, this DOES mean that you can do zero damage. That would just mean that the damage was turned/absorbed by the armor itself. But it would serve to reduce the associations between attack rolls and damage....






One could even argue that attacks being treated as movement maneuvers would be more interally consistent anyway.  I mean, think about it; why is an attack not a movement maneuver?  There's movement involved and you're testing your skill and it is often compared to the skill of another person.  How is that different than, say, sneaking?

I'm sure it would be considered the slaughtering of a sacred cow.  I know there are a lot of people who think that separating hit from damage is evil.  And I've heard all the reasoning.  I just don't agree with it.  But I think the logic that would branch out from this one change would have overwhelmingly useful benefits.  For instance, it could make concepts such as targeting specific hit location more efficient.  Targeting the throat could be a Hard maneuver but wouldn't actually decrease the amount of damage you did by taking the penalty to hit.  You could also apply any MM bonus to the result of the damage part so you wouldn't sacrifice the "good roll = good damage" aspect.

Hmmm...I like this idea!  I'm gonna run with it. ;)  Very nice Rasyr.
A man said to the universe:
"Sir I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"The fact has not created in me
A sense of obligation."
--Stephen Crain

Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

  • Inactive
  • *
  • Posts: 0
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Rolemaster Issues
« Reply #73 on: March 06, 2009, 01:00:11 PM »
Hmmm...I like this idea!  I'm gonna run with it. ;)  Very nice Rasyr.

I tinker, therefore I am....


Offline GoblynByte

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 533
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Rolemaster Issues
« Reply #74 on: March 06, 2009, 01:41:57 PM »
Hmmm...I like this idea!  I'm gonna run with it. ;)  Very nice Rasyr.

I tinker, therefore I am....



The tinkering got you an idea point.  That phrase got you a laugh point.
A man said to the universe:
"Sir I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"The fact has not created in me
A sense of obligation."
--Stephen Crain

Offline chukoliang

  • Neophyte
  • *
  • Posts: 32
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Rolemaster Issues
« Reply #75 on: March 22, 2009, 09:53:02 PM »
I'm not saying this to be a jerk, but are you new to RM?

The reason you go through all that character generation process with all those stats, is for when these problems come up. If the GM feels those skills are needed, you chose the primary stats to assign to get the bonus. Add professional bonuses, and professional cost, and boom you have a new skill. Problem solved.

Also talent law has things that add these types of abilities you are asking for.

So answering these is redundant but easy enough. As your gm could simply add any skill he deemed is necessary.

"Fumble not tied to competence of combatants."

Fumble is a luck thing and is tied to your type of weapon. 2 handed weapons have a larger fumble range. The swashbuckling skills work on this, and you could simply add a anti fumble skill akin too the disarming skills. If you feel it was that necessary.

"Critics are too random. An "A" critical can kill you with a bit of luck. (I like realism, but dispatching PC randomly isn't a good choice)
Too simple to kill very impressive monster, doing super-roll."

Crits are luck. If you don't like that Add Fate points from the (RMSS Channeling companion), these are added like 1 per game for intense combat, maybe 1 per level for less combat. These emergency points save characters from insta kills like that. And most GM's fudge those murderous rolls. Also super monsters have super abilities. Undead's stats seem weak. But if you add the stat drain, the group is in big trouble unless they have a cleric (as if their Constitution reach zero, they become lvl 1 created undead).

"No locational damage."

Did locational damage in Palladim. Sounded great was not so good in practice. But there is a skill that allows one to adjust crits up and down (rogues use it alot). If combined with a talent to do it from any postion, it becomes very powerful. A rogue crits you and adjust the crit up or down for each rank (not skill total) they have. And of course they adjust it towards the nastiest crit. I believe rogues get it the cheapest, but combat types get it cheap enough. If not you can add a skill and everyone in your game will just hit the guy in the eye, groin, head, or whatever.

"No dodge."

This is probably on purpose. If you use anticipations this subtracts 50 from the attack, and is instaneous (as long as the person can see the attack coming). This spell can be powerful (so if you have a caster there is that to add to dodge). There are also the adrenial moves and such (usually associated with martial artist) which adds to the DB and OB etc, which is considered over powered by our group (but would be logical if your using a martial artist). Warrior types are fairly good at doing this.

"No shield skill, only a flat bonus."

20 points, plus a quality shield, quickness bonus, racial bonus (caster casting blur,shield( if they are using a shield), anticipations etc). You have a huge bonus. Then if you use Talent law they can do even more to it, you can end up with some crazy Defensive bonus's.  Again add Adrenial skills and it can be absurd, but that is up to you.

"RMC presents rules for breakage insanely complex (how do they worked out them...  )"

The weapon breakage rules are simple (at least in RMSS) it's on the weapon chart. It is the thing called weapon breakage #.  If you roll the doubles listed on your chart you have to roll to see if you break your weapon.  Add your weapon strength, weapon quality and then make the roll. If it gets over a certain number, the weapon has reached it's breaking point, snap. Weapon gone. If the GM wants you can have a person roll the same breakage number any time it seems appropriate.

"No defense roll. Instead of putting a bonus in defense I'd like an active defense. This way combat is more dynamic (a double fumble!!!!  )"

I'm not seeing the double fumble coming out of this idea. But again if you want an "active" defense add adrenial moves. It will be more absurd than Shadowrun, rolling 30 die for defense, but it can be done. And Rolemaster already has critical fumbles (which is essentially a double fumble). If they roll really bad on the fumble they can practically kill themselves. In fact we had an arcanist fumble so bad he killed the entire group.

"Weapons table are diverse but similar. Doing an "E" critical to a naked warrior with a dagger is the some sa doing an "E" critical with a Great Lance at full gallop wiht a Heavy Barded, Heavy War Horse  . Difference is hits, but not too much. This change, a little, with higher AT20, but depends on the weapons.
Etc."

If you use the rules for charging there is alot more damage. And heavily armored people are much easier to hit, but harder to crit on. A person not wearing armor is harder to hit, but easier to crit on. So your dodge rules are already implimented.  And damage is damage, how much different do you expect the damage to be from one E to another E?  If one type was too unbalancing, then everyone in your game system would use that same type of weapon to attack (the first time our group had void bolts came to mind). I'm not sure on your meaning of the barded horse? A heavy War Horse would probably charge faster without the barding, but would be heavier (and thus slower without the barding). Mass x accelartion = power. If you lose the speed you lose some attack power, but if you lose some mass you lose some power.  So from the charts point of view it is easier to have one simple answer. Instead of 600 for each situation.

As one of my teachers used to say "there is no such thing as deader".  An E crit on one guy may be described slightly different, but in the end dead is dead. And watch out for those A tiny's , we had a group lose many eyes from a group of styrges... It was so bad the GM had to say, you wake up at the Inn and strangely you all had the same dream...We now fear A tiny criticals as a group....heh.

But the RM system in my experience already has the answer to most of your questions. It's just usually we are looking in the wrong place for the answers ;)

Offline GoblynByte

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 533
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Rolemaster Issues
« Reply #76 on: March 23, 2009, 03:55:06 PM »
I'm not saying this to be a jerk, but are you new to RM?


Don't mistake alternate suggestions to the way things are done with not knowing how they are currently done.  Most comments made on these boards about how things could be 'fixed' (in anyone's opinion) are made with full knowledge about the rules as written.
A man said to the universe:
"Sir I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"The fact has not created in me
A sense of obligation."
--Stephen Crain

Offline Trond

  • Neophyte
  • *
  • Posts: 32
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Rolemaster Issues
« Reply #77 on: October 11, 2009, 10:12:27 PM »

"Fumble not tied to competence of combatants."

Fumble is a luck thing and is tied to your type of weapon. 2 handed weapons have a larger fumble range. The swashbuckling skills work on this, and you could simply add a anti fumble skill akin too the disarming skills. If you feel it was that necessary.


I disagree Chukoliang. You know the rules well enough to "iron out" some creases, but it all seems a bit ad hoc. An experienced person using a skill he or she is familiar with should (in my opinion) be far less likely to fumble.

I think most (or all?) rolls should be open-ended. No unmodified results please. If your skill bonus is good enough to cancel out an extremely low result, then you saved the situation.


Offline Grinnen Baeritt

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 505
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Rolemaster Issues
« Reply #78 on: October 16, 2009, 04:41:05 AM »
A lot of water under the bridge in this thread... so excuse me if I'm covering old ground.

1. The "66" is superfluous and illogical. Get rid of it if you don't like it.

2. Randomness of criticals and fumbles. Exactly why I play/run RM. If you don't want to use a critical result as written (as a DM) or don't think it's appropriate to the situation. Then change it to a lesser effect. Instead of killing a PC with a fluke "00" on a "A" type crit, KO them instead!

3. You want Fumbles to happen less when your skilled?....well, perhaps then only roll for an actual fumble when a fumble result is indicated but the result is negative after all modifiers are applied. Otherwise, treat any unmodified roll that falls into the fumble range as a simple miss. That way a super-skilled person may fail but will only really screw up on really poor results from an OELow roll.  
« Last Edit: October 16, 2009, 04:49:49 AM by Grinnen Baeritt »

Offline Marc R

  • Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 13,392
  • OIC Points +0/-0
  • "Don't throw stones, offer alternatives."
    • Looking for Online Roleplay? Try RealRoleplaying
Re: Rolemaster Issues
« Reply #79 on: October 16, 2009, 06:27:00 AM »
IMO The 66 exists to leverage the ambush skill, at 15 ranks:

Any roll of 51-65 = 66
Any roll of 67-81 = 66
Any roll of 82-84 = 96-99
Any roll of > 84   = 100

thus 15 ranks at around 7th level (14th level for 1 rankers) = 50% odds of taking target down with a one shot from ambush.

I don't think that was accidental or illogical, and is a key element of the assassination tropes. . .for random non ambush crits, it's an odd duck, out of sequence result. . .but there's a logic to it, and it serves a purpose within the overall system.
The Artist Formerly Known As LordMiller

Looking for online Role Play? Try WWW.RealRoleplaying.Com