Author Topic: If Arms Law were a computer program...  (Read 5966 times)

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Offline Crypt

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Re: If Arms Law were a computer program...
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2008, 04:45:48 AM »
the main problem is that feeding it (with datas from the tables) would be boring unless a general formulae for generating them exists.
Does it exist ? (i guess no)
« Last Edit: June 13, 2008, 04:50:55 AM by Crypt »


Offline croakerdogboy

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Re: If Arms Law were a computer program...
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2008, 08:08:35 AM »
Realistically, if Ice were to market and sell the software just the same as any other software vendor, licensing and problems like that would be taken care of.

The problem with the online service scenario is that speaking as one of those who live in the sticks and had dial-up until this week, that keeps a lot of rural users from using the software. Not only that people with no live internet connection would be precluded. That includes people with a laptop that they want to carry to the basement to play and no connection. I think a stand-alone app is the most appropriate for the use of the software.

That being said, it is relatively simple to produce a standalone app that could handle plug in expansions to increase the range of the software. If the expansions were marketed seperatly (perhaps tied in with the purchase of the rulebooks) then you could make sure that the person that got the software was actually the one that purchased it.

I was also thinking .... how cool would it be to tie this in with a flat hex map and sprite packages with furniture, trees, persons etc. This would allow autocalculation of ranges, line of sight, cover etc. Then you could have sprite packages for basic RMSS, SM:P, etc. Then when the gamemaster is setting up his combat map he could have different items to chose from.
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Offline dutch206

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Re: If Arms Law were a computer program...
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2008, 07:18:07 PM »
I hate to rain on your parade, but such a program would also have to take into account certain things from Spell Law.  (Such as Aura, True Aura, Alkar, "Shield Mastery", Deflections, Illusions, Invisibility, etc....)

It would also have to take into account battlefield modifiers such as:  heavy undergrowth, lighting, cover, racial abilities such as nightvision, etc...

And, last but not least, it would have to take into consideration weather conditions such as fog, snow, ice, rain, mud, etc.....

All of these things have an impact on the outcome of a combat.
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Offline markc

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Re: If Arms Law were a computer program...
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2008, 08:07:20 PM »
 Yes there are a lot of factors but IMO you have to start small and plan for expansion. A lot of expansion.

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Offline croakerdogboy

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Re: If Arms Law were a computer program...
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2008, 08:16:32 AM »
Quote
I hate to rain on your parade, but such a program would also have to take into account certain things from Spell Law.  (Such as Aura, True Aura, Alkar, "Shield Mastery", Deflections, Illusions, Invisibility, etc....)

Essentially the question was can you make arms law into a program and how long would it take. The answer is yes and about three weeks minus testing if I used XML tables. Cover, terrain and such at just an interactive level (no map) would not be that difficult to add in. For that matter I would leave an opening for the GM to add whatever modifiers they deem necessary to encompass anything not built in.

As far as adding in Spell Law and things like that, they were not part of the original question. As I have said many times when someone at work asks me about programming something into our software "Sure, it can be done. How long do you want me to take". Anything can be programmed, it's just a matter of how much time and effort you need to put into it. So Spell Law can be added, as can anything else.
It is the fundamental theory of all the more recent American law...that the average citizen is half-witted, and hence not to be trusted to either his own devices or his own thoughts.

H.L. Mencken

Offline Mando

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Re: If Arms Law were a computer program...
« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2008, 03:07:07 AM »
I have done such a software too for HARP using Hack & Slash combat system. It's using a proprietary programming system (Director) which is not really appropriate but was the one I wanted to put through testing at the time. All the data is kept in XML files (that means I have all the crit charts from H&S in XML format).

I would advise against getting too far in handling total combat with special conditions and actions outside basic status tracking like Vroomfogle did as the software will have to handle huge amount of data per opponent, have a more than huge number of controls (these tiny items like pop up or drop down menus) per opponent, and will have to handle so many things that interface will become a real mess. And in the end, you will have something that does it all, but is just not usable by anyone outside the programmer itself. And the time of prep will become huge too (unless you also use this one system to handle your NPCs and monsters character sheets or tech data, call this as you want, which is something to consider but that will add other constraints like pdf printing, etc.)


My actual piece of software does handle status tracking, anything related to combat beyond OB and DB and some kind of basic situational bonuses (flanked, non aware, etc.) I can have Player A strike Opponent B with one of its weapons, enter OB dice from Player A, see the result read from a H&S crit table with all modifiers taken into account, and apply it to the current status of B.

But then the software has to take a LOT of specific data into account, like differenciate between armor DB, shield DB and Quickness bonus DB as they are handled differently when you want to apply manoeuvers penalties.

Handling initiative has been one of the worst parts of the experience, and if I were to do it again I would do it in a different, manual ("manual vs auto") way.

You also have to take into account "outside basic strike exchange" effects like cure spells and herbs and potions and all that could affects opponent's status.

And you have to take into account any mean to enter data by hand when you encounter a situation where something happens you can't handle at the time being (happens more often than you think).

Going reverse in time would have helped too ("wait, wait, I forgot I had cast this spell before... the start of the the fight..." :))

You also have to think about what's going on at the table during this kind of "computerized" fights: when I ran one fight with all auto things "on", players felt like disconnnected from the fight, and even asked me if I was having fun with my monsters and their chars on my screen... (yes, they are this SO cute :)). So I went back to a less automatized thing, and then had to face another issue: as I gave back control and handling of some key data to the players, we had a constant exchange which was somewhere of a pain ("I can see your actual DB taking a 30% Parry is 80, are you ok?").

So this global concept is not only a programming issue, it's also about still handling a real table top gaming experience and the very specific atmosphere that all gamers feel at the table when a fight begins. It is something to consider, mostly in these times when some tabletop games want to feel more and more like online computerized games... :)

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Offline croakerdogboy

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Re: If Arms Law were a computer program...
« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2008, 08:34:48 AM »
That's what I was thinking as far as doing the arms law aspect. More personal input rather then automatic.

For instance, it could calculate due to wounds and other factors what your OB is available this round, but it doesn't split it into what you spend on defense and attack. Those would be input boxes for the player to have entered. That's why I was thinking three weeks. I didn't want to handle every possible situation, I just wanted to automate the charts essentially. I was still going to allow for manual roll, and inputting of manual rolls. I know that there is no difference between having the machine do it or you do it, but there is something to throwing the dice that keeps people enthralled. (Probably why there is no popular simulated craps game.) 

I agree if you go to far with it, then it's just you running simulated combats while everyone watches.

When I was talking about having hex grids and such to track positioning, it was more as a visual aid then anything else.
It is the fundamental theory of all the more recent American law...that the average citizen is half-witted, and hence not to be trusted to either his own devices or his own thoughts.

H.L. Mencken

Offline Elton Robb

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Re: If Arms Law were a computer program...
« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2008, 08:49:30 AM »
Could you make an OSX version, too?
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Offline vroomfogle

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Re: If Arms Law were a computer program...
« Reply #28 on: June 26, 2008, 09:40:03 AM »
Mando, you are right on.    In the first piece of software I did I went a bit overboard with automation.   In my lastest bit I don't have the software do any OB mods at all - the players still add all their bonuses (OB, situational, flank,  surprise, etc) for the two main reasons you mention.  One is that players are more involved and like to see the impact of all those mods.  And the second is that too much automation simply creates a huge data entry job for the GM round to round.   My first version of the software slowed down combat rather then speed it up because entering in situational mods was slower then the players just taking them into account with their total bonus.

I've been advising on the RM ruleset for Fantasy Grounds and have been pushing for a ruleset that helps out the GM and automates some aspects without making it become too unwieldy.  It's a delicate balance to get.    And also in a game like RM, and I suspect HARP as well, is that absolutely nothing can be automated out of the control of the GM.   RM is such a heavily modified system that anything that is hard-coded or difficult to over-ride makes the software rather useless.   That's why so many people end up using Excel for character generation rather and the few CharGen software programs out there never caught on very well.   The Excel ones are easy to to modify but most of the software based ones code the rules as is.

I personally have found that I do like the computer to handle initiative automatically though.  It has greatly sped up out battles as I don't have to do the entry for each combatant every round.  I just hit "New Round" then call out each player in turn.

Offline Tarek

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Re: If Arms Law were a computer program...
« Reply #29 on: June 26, 2008, 02:24:23 PM »
Initiative and wound tracking was why I started to code the ASP system I now use, and then went on to add Arms Law (then Spell Law/Maneuvers/etc).

I was trying to find a way to use the action point initiative system from Guild Companion, and it was easier to code than to do in a spreadsheet, and adding combat results was an obvious bonus, and it grew from there.

One thing that is different in my system is that you can enter all the modifiers using pop-ups/drop downs/etc, or ignore them and enter the totals directly. I normally just enter totals when I'm with a group that knows what they're doing, but with a less experienced group it's often quicker to just enter the details than get them to look up all the modifiers.