Topic: Official Rulling please!

[mightypawn]

I'll try it this way guys.....  One more try...

here's the segments of rules...

RMFRP pg. 40

INITIATIVE DETERMINATION PHASE
...
Declared Movement ................... -1 per 10% of maximum
movement activity (based on declared pace)

RMFRP PG 41

SNAP ACTION PHASE
.....
• 20% is the maximum activity for a movement action.


Here, for the Snap action phase is a Defiinition for Maximum activity... there are similar definitions for Normal and Deliberate phases.

The modifier for initiative is based on the term "Maximum Activity", specifically a percentage thereof.

The term Maximum Activity defined as a separate number (20% of total for snap action)


So here it is,  THE BIG QUESTION:


Why is it then, as you guys say was the official ruling, that the initiative penalty is uniform?

 For example, if someone can move 20' in a given Snap Action Phase, and moves that 20 feet, you all say, -2 to initiative. 

ok then, what if he moved 10'?  5'? 15'?
 

The % used per phase is the % referred to, so if you take a penalty based on it, it's 20% = 20% period, not that 20% is 100% of snap and thus 100%.

If the percentage is simply the "Phase Percent", then does the character receive the same -2 to initiative in all cases?  Regardless if it's a move of 1' or 20'?

It just occurs to me that since the rule states "-1 per 10% of maximum
movement activity"  that it is asking us to calculate the percentage based on the definition of what the maximum activity is for the phase in question.

If that is not the case, If I am simply missing something, I'd love to know where to find the clarifying rule.


Moreover:

Why then, if as you guys say, that 20% Maximum Movement is still only 20% in the snap action phase, why doesn't the rule simply say:

Snap action phase initiative modifier = -2?
Normal action phase initiative Modifier = -5
and Deliberate action phase initiative Modifier = -8

And....  Doesn't that seem backwards?

It makes no sense either... for the Maximum initiate modifier to be a mere -2 in Snap action, when the other phases contain much bigger penalties!  Isn't the Snap action phase supposed to be the more difficult phase to perform an action in?

[Marc R]

This is I suspect a near parallel in word use is drawing these two items together:

RMFRP pg. 40

INITIATIVE DETERMINATION PHASE
...
Declared Movement ................... -1 per 10% of maximum movement activity (based on declared pace)

RMFRP PG 41

SNAP ACTION PHASE
.....
• 20% is the maximum activity for a movement action.

These two red items are similar wording, but note it's not identical. . .also this isn't a defined term in the rules jargon within RM's rules ala "OB/DB split".

Both instances refer to movement, but neither relates to the other.

In the first instance "Maximum Movement Activity" is being compared to "Maximum possible movement activity within a round at the pace the combatant is moving.". . .i.e. if you move 10% the penalty is -1, if you move 20% it's -2, if you move 30% it's -3. This section of the text comes before the activity phases, and is globally referring to all three, so the percentage in question is still a percentage of the round, not of the phase.

In the second instance, "Maximum activity for a movement action" is establishing a limit, within the snap phase, of 20% movement, no more. The same with the similar wording in the other two phases. . .this is not defining a rule term intended to be used in the context of the previous page. . .

Merely coincidence, with similar, but not identical word choices, and there's no direct cross connection like you are referring to.

For example if you happen to move 20%, then because you have declared 20% movement this round, your penalty will be -2 to your initiative. . .in every phase. . .if you declare a sum of 10 move, then your penalty is -1. . .15 gets into complex ground relating to rounding, personally I'd actually call the penalty -1.5 and just have that half point act as a tie breaker if any came up. . .many GMs just require movement be in increments of 10% for this reason.

You'll notice the upper right hand corner text on page 40 sums up the movement restrictions by phase, with yet a third set of word choices that are similar, but not the same as the red items above. . ..this is not an instance where rule 1 modifies rule 2, the two rules are stand alone and not cross referential. If there was an intention for them to, it would have been made quite clear in the text, and the examples anywhere on initiative would have to, since if the initiative penalty due to movement was relative to the size of the allowed movement in each of the three phases, then in each and every instance in the books, the initiative penalty for movement would slowly shrink from snap, to normal to Deliberate. . .which I can't ever think of any instance of seeing.

Does that help, or am I still not on target?

[Ecthelion]

Why is it then, as you guys say was the official ruling, that the initiative penalty is uniform?

Because in every phase a character can use up to 100% activity (depending on his actions, of course). An exception is movement, where the maximum activity is limited by the action phase. And on this exception you unfortunately built up your rationale.

[mightypawn]

Ok...  We are FINNALY all speaking the same language! 

YEAH!

Thanks guys for being patient with me, and I finally understand what you all are saying.... FINALLY!!

Again, your patience is appreciated and about to pay off, but I'm going to tax you just a bit more with one more question...

What happens if someone moves their 20% in Snap action, and then moves more.... say 50% in Normal action... what would be the initiative mod then?

I know I've hit the end of you all's patience here, but I think if I had the answer to this last question, I would be done.... 

[Ecthelion]

What happens if someone moves their 20% in Snap action, and then moves more.... say 50% in Normal action... what would be the initiative mod then?

AFAIK the rules don't give a clear answer to this question. Some options for handling the situation:
A) -2 to initiative in the Snap Action Phase and -2 + -5 = -7 to initiative in the Normal and Deliberate Action Phases
B) -7 to initiative for all Action Phases
Personally I'd use option A.

[mightypawn]

I had to go read the other thread again.... now that I see the other side....

I thought I'd found the light, but I'm still in the dark... LOL!

I see now why there is the controversy on the subject of Initiative.  The concept of "Phases" without a time element, just doesn't mesh with a game that uses the concept of time heavily.

That's where I was "Lost in the Rules"

Now that I see the "Dark Side" of the Phase system....  I think I'm going to discard it altogether.  Now that you guys have been soooo  patient and helpful, to get me up to speed, I'm opting to toss the whole deal out the window!  One action per round is enough, if that's all your enemy gets. 

Marc. R, and Ecthelion....  You guys rock.  Thanks much!

[MariusH]

If you want to throw the phase system away and use one action pr round, that's obviously not a problem. I think many systems are like that, and if it works well for you, that's how you should play it. However, when you say "One action per round is enough, if that's all your enemy gets", I have to disagree. The enemies of course have all the same options as the players. They declare actions and use phases, and can have one action in each phase (snap, normal and deliberate), just like any of the players.

We use a chart to keep track of who does what, when. Oh, and we have introduced what we call a "decitions phase" before the declaration phase. So first, everyone DECIDES what they want to do (without discussing with each other - that should be done during the action phases in the previous round). Then, everyone rolls for initiative and then DECLARES what they want to do (the enemies don't declare out loud, of course, since the players shouldn't know what they plan). Our chart consists of three phases, each with numbers -10 - +40 on it. Everyone, including the enemies, have three markers. Now, during declaration phase, everyone places their markers at the number corresponing to their initiative, in the phases where they have declared an action. So if I have declared a 20% movement in snap and an 80% attack in normal, and roll for a total of 17 initiative, I place a marker at "17" in snap phase and one in "17" in normal phase. Then, we start with the marker at the highest number in snap phase, execute the action and remove the marker. Continue until every marker in snap phase is removed, then we go on to normal, and after that, deliberate. Finally, everyone who has some activity left (did not use all activity), is asked if they want to use this for "movement at the end of deliberate phase", before a new turn starts.

[providence13]

We cannot choose to accept or reject a certain rule if it is in question or somehow unclear.  Therefore I am asking for an official ruling on the matter.

This is Rolemaster!   
 Confusing, unclear and often contradictory rules aren't hard to find. But I don't want a game that tells me how to do everything.

MariusH has a good system that works for them. Phases are not a part of our game either.

[mightypawn]

I'm with you Providence....  Hang on to what makes sense for your world... pitch the rest

(and now I understand why you were the one who first understood me!)

[mightypawn]

By the way, Providence, if you are running a game, and don't mind someone sitting in via Internet....  I'd love to play with your group.  I have a new Animist (level 1) that I was planning on inserting as an NPC in my game, but I could use him just as easily in yours... or... better, duplicate him....

[providence13]

I would absolutely love to have you. 
Right now we don't have a way to make that happen.
I used to prefer a lap top for notes, PDF's, whatever, but I'm using that less and less now and trying to concentrate on the players. The peripherals were slowing me down.

But if you're ever in the U.S. NC area, PM me.

[mightypawn]

I'm in Northern MI.... 

If you feel like setting up your computer speakers and a mic....  let me know!