Topic: Armour questions

[Pat]

I ran an encounter with the party asleep (bar the standard guard) and I ruled that the othr party members were unarmoured since they were sleeping at the time. Anyway, arguements ensued about being able to sleep in armour and eventually we decided that you could sleep in Soft Leather but not any other types of armour.

My questions are:

1) What do other GM's use for encounters in the night for armour? Do you let players sleep in full armour or not?

2) Is there a general guide for donning armour? I was using 1 minute for each armour type (ie 1 min SL, 2 mins RL up to 5 mins plate) but this means that even the least armoured type is out of action for 30 rounds. Is there a guide to time taken for putting on armour?

thanks.....

[Hawkwind]

1) - No, I generally don't let characters sleep in armour. I don't think you would get a decently refreshing sleep even in soft leather, but from a playability point of view, I allow players to sleep in soft leather, so if they get attacked at night the fighters aren't completely unarmoured (I rule that their padding for metallic armour counts as soft leather).

2) - I don't know of any guidelines, but with combat rounds being 2 seconds I would rule that if you're taking time to put your armour on, then you're not taking part in the combat, as very few combats last for more than 10 rounds.

Hawk

[jurasketu]

Armor is for wimps! Warrior Mages RULE!

Seriously... My readings of real soldiers in real combat conditions throughout the ages leads me to conclude that tough guys can withstand conditions that are simply unimaginable for everyone else. And since I want to think of adventurers as TOUGH guys [using the modern gender neutral meaning of 'guys'], adventurers would just sleep in their armor as best they could - comfort be blasted.

Mind you, if they've put themselves up in an inn and/or have no reason to believe danger is lurking, they are going take the armor off. So, unless the characters have GOOD reason to believe danger lurks, it should be assumed they take the armor off. Just like you don't leave horses saddled up or bows always strung. You can - but over time bad things would happen.

In game terms, if the players insist on never taking off their armor, they should get infections, rashes, mental illness from lack of sleep, etc. So you could start imposing general penalties for all actions due to poor cognition and poor health. You could impose the penalties after 2 - 6 days of continuous wear. That way, they could be TOUGH guys in the short term, but too many days in a row would wear them down which is pretty realistic actually.

As far as donning armor in an emergency situation, I think characters are probably going to don whatever armor they can in the time alloted. Helms? Two rounds. Simple breastplate? Probably manage it in 6-10 rounds. Mail shirt? 3-6 rounds. Studded leather? 3 - 4 rounds but not laced up. But greaves, vanbraces, weapons belt, fancy heavy plate mail? Forget it. It'll take minutes and the fight will be long over.

Robin

[Right Wing Wacko]

Armor is for wimps! Warrior Mages RULE!

Seriously... My readings of real soldiers in real combat conditions throughout the ages leads me to conclude that tough guys can withstand conditions that are simply unimaginable for everyone else. And since I want to think of adventurers as TOUGH guys [using the modern gender neutral meaning of 'guys'], adventurers would just sleep in their armor as best they could - comfort be blasted.

Mind you, if they've put themselves up in an inn and/or have no reason to believe danger is lurking, they are going take the armor off. So, unless the characters have GOOD reason to believe danger lurks, it should be assumed they take the armor off. Just like you don't leave horses saddled up or bows always strung. You can - but over time bad things would happen.

In game terms, if the players insist on never taking off their armor, they should get infections, rashes, mental illness from lack of sleep, etc. So you could start imposing general penalties for all actions due to poor cognition and poor health. You could impose the penalties after 2 - 6 days of continuous wear. That way, they could be TOUGH guys in the short term, but too many days in a row would wear them down which is pretty realistic actually.

As far as donning armor in an emergency situation, I think characters are probably going to don whatever armor they can in the time alloted. Helms? Two rounds. Simple breastplate? Probably manage it in 6-10 rounds. Mail shirt? 3-6 rounds. Studded leather? 3 - 4 rounds but not laced up. But greaves, vanbraces, weapons belt, fancy heavy plate mail? Forget it. It'll take minutes and the fight will be long over.

Robin

True! That has been my own military experience as well as all the reading I have done points to it also...
Although there is a limit to the amount of "uncomfort" one can tolerate, those "trained" in experiencing such conditions can become acclimated to them to a degree. While this wouldn't alloy them to permanently sleep in armor, they certainly could do so longer and with less discomfort than Baker Bob the commoner.

[jasonbrisbane]

Should there be a Talent to being able to reduce any penalty to Sleep deprivation from wearing armour (i.e. 25 DP's for a total of +20. Then say each type of armour incurs a -5 penalty (cumulative per day until a full nights sleep is had).

What do other people think?

Rasyr, have you had any ideas in regards to this in HARP?

[uberyoung]

How about keep multiplying the Armour man. penalty each day?

i.e. Wearing Soft Leather (and bought off all penalties) would allow you to effectively sleep in light armour with no penalty.

If you're in Chain (and bought off all penalties you can but still at -10):
After first night = -10
After second night = -20
etc.

Therefor, somebody who is 'used' to armour doesn't suffer quite as much and heavier armours are more penalizing..?

A good nights sleep in a comfy bed resets the penalty to 0...

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

How about keep multiplying the Armour man. penalty each day?

i.e. Wearing Soft Leather (and bought off all penalties) would allow you to effectively sleep in light armour with no penalty.

If you're in Chain (and bought off all penalties you can but still at -10):
After first night = -10
After second night = -20
etc.

Therefor, somebody who is 'used' to armour doesn't suffer quite as much and heavier armours are more penalizing..?

A good nights sleep in a comfy bed resets the penalty to 0...

I like this idea...

Note: however, that these penalties should be based on the character's current Armor Penalty, and that they are in addition to his normal armor penalty (i.e. after first night, character is at -10 from normal AP and another -10 for sleeping in armor).

Also, if the character's current armor penalty is -50 because he has few ranks in the skill, then the daily penalty for sleeping in armor should also be -50....

[Ecthelion]

1) What do other GM's use for encounters in the night for armour? Do you let players sleep in full armour or not?

Normally the PCs in our group doff their armor when going to sleep. We assume that nightly watches don their armor again at the start of the watch and doff it again when the next one takes over. If a PCs wants to keep on his armor during his sleep, then we have a ruling that PPs and Hits Points recover only as if the PCs was resting but not as when sleeping. This rule does not enforce sleeping without armor but gives you a benefit it you do so.

2) Is there a general guide for donning armour? I was using 1 minute for each armour type (ie 1 min SL, 2 mins RL up to 5 mins plate) but this means that even the least armoured type is out of action for 30 rounds. Is there a guide to time taken for putting on armour?

IIRC one of the old RM Companions contained a table with suggested times for donning and doffing armor. The current rules AFAIK don't contain such a table.

[jasonbrisbane]

Hi Rasyr,

Yes that would work really well.

Pat, do you want to introduce it as a test? I doubt you would get any arguments from any of our PC's but also inform them that NPC's also get the same bonus....

[Pat]

I like the idea but would like to see it expanded a bit since, in our group, almost all party members have none (or almost none) armour penalties due to Master work armour. (Masterwork armour can effectively reduce armour penalties to zero up to Chain, -5 for Plate/Chain and -10 for Plate armour)

How about amalgamating the ideas above so:

Characters can sleep in Soft Leather without penalty. (This includes characters that wear padded armour under their armour. This means that if they're attacked in the night they get Soft Leather armour bonuses.){Thanks Hawkwind}

Characters get -5 penalty for sleeping in armour per level of armour worn.
Rigid Leather -5
Chain -10
Plate Chain -15
Plate -20
{Thanks Uberyoung}

This penalty would be in addition to armour penalties {Thanks Rasyr} and would be cumulative each night. This would also reflect the level of comfort of each type of armour.

What do you all think?

[R?che]

Pat,

I think your idea with combining the penalties for both would work well.  That would take care of the issue of master work armor and no MnP.  That would also take care of the issue of no MnP from other materials as well.  Plus no matter how lite or encumbering something is, sleeping in plate would be an issue to some extent.

Would you just carry everything over to piecemeal armor?  If so, this would also, work and give your fighter a better chance of sleeping in just a breast plate as well. Figure he would have -6 (base MnP for a plate curiass) plus his armor maneuver penalty which would easily be 0 if master work.

BTW how is Sir Guy fairing?

[choc]

I like your idea Pat, but ....

... what a horrible mindless task for the GM to calculate all AbtP penalties ... especially when some PC/NPC only wear some pieces overnight

p.s. our group gets penalties while we pass the night in a buggy bed

[jasonbrisbane]

I'd like to put forward a slightly different flavour.

improved and Masterwork armour is designed to be more defensive. It is designed to protect those previously lesser protected areas and increase the defensiveness of armour whilst not increasing weight and still making it slightly easilier to maneuver in combat.

As such I'd say that Improved and MW bonuses do NOT count whilst calculating Sleeping penalties.
The same goes for Dragonskin/Spidersilk or any other types of armour. (Dragonskin is only comfortable for Dragons!; spidersilk is only comfortable for a spiders dead meal!)

So the base type of armour, compared to the HARP Core rules MAN Pen table is the penalty that applies for sleeping.
Even magical armour cant get past this (unless the magic is : "can sleep in this armour" bonus).

Any reason why this wouldnt work?

[Pat]

Would you just carry everything over to piecemeal armor?  If so, this would also, work and give your fighter a better chance of sleeping in just a breast plate as well. Figure he would have -6 (base MnP for a plate curiass) plus his armor maneuver penalty which would easily be 0 if master work.

I like your idea Pat, but ....

... what a horrible mindless task for the GM to calculate all AbtP penalties ... especially when some PC/NPC only wear some pieces overnight

How I'd probably work it out is based on the percentage of armour worn overnight. This would be based on page 87 - 89 core book. Armour percentages are:

Option A:
Helm 10%
Gorget 10%
Pauldrons 10%
Bracers 10%
Gauntlets 10%
Cuirass 30%
Greaves 10%
Boots 10%

or

Option B:
Helm 10%
Gorget 10%
Shirt 40%
Bracers 10%
Gauntlets 10%
Greaves 10%
Boots 10%

So using option B if the player had:
Plate Helm
Chain Gorget
Rigid Leather shirt
Plate/chain Bracers
Soft Leather Greaves
Plate Boots

then the effect would be:
Plate Helm (10% x -20) = -2
Chain Gorget (10% x -10) = -1
Rigid Leather Shirt (40% x -5) = -2
Plate/chain Bracers (10% x -15)= -2 (always round up)
Soft Leather Greaves (10% x no penalty) = 0
Plate Boots (10% x -20) = -2

Total penalty -9 for sleeping in piecemeal armour + armour penalty. This would also apply if players choose to wear only certain items to bed. For instance:

Rigid Leather Greaves (10% x -5) = -1
Chain Cuirass (30% x -10) = -3

Total penalty -4 plus armour penalty for base DB of 15 for armour.

I like Jas's idea as well of having the minimum maneauver penalties (sans improved and masterwork bonuses) as the sleeping penalties.

[uberyoung]

Yes, it was my intention that these penalties are on top of Armor Skill penalties already acrued by wearing armour.

I would do penalties of:
Soft Leather -5
Rigid Leather -10
Chain -15
Plate Chain -20
Plate -25
to be fair to those who wear no armour (and is easier to remember in my mind)...

I would also not worry too much about 'Armour by the Piece' - just give them the worst penalty from above for whatever the heaviest piece they are wearing (regardless of which piece).
It's not 100% realistic, but avoids an exercise in Accountancy!

[jasonbrisbane]

Yes, it was my intention that these penalties are on top of Armor Skill penalties already acrued by wearing armour.

I would do penalties of:
Soft Leather -5
Rigid Leather -10
Chain -15
Plate Chain -20
Plate -25
to be fair to those who wear no armour (and is easier to remember in my mind)...

I would also not worry too much about 'Armour by the Piece' - just give them the worst penalty from above for whatever the heaviest piece they are wearing (regardless of which piece).
It's not 100% realistic, but avoids an exercise in Accountancy!

Yes, you could add this to the HARP core 'Drunkards rule'
(Drunkards Rule #2??)