Author Topic: Skill advancement, ES-style  (Read 2800 times)

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Offline Justin

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Skill advancement, ES-style
« on: February 26, 2008, 02:28:15 PM »
Has anyone considered or done this? I am currently in the later half of adapting the Elder Scrolls pc game series mechanic for skill advancement to RM2. I'd say I'll have it ready for game-after-next, which is about a month away. My players just leveled, so it's a good time to test this out. Let me outline what I've done, and ask for your feedback.

I. Review of ES skill advancement:
You have 5 major skills, 5 minor skills, and all the rest are miscellaneous. Skills are percentage-based. Each successful use of a skill fills a meter, and when that meter is full it resets and you gain a percentage point. There are modifiers that increase how much the meter is filled: major > minor > misc. ; your specialization field(combat/magic/stealth) is faster.  After you have gained 10% total across your major and minor skills, you level(hp & mana & endurance increase, stat increase.)  As you might expect, waiting for 10 increases is much longer at the beginning?you can play an entire day and only reach lvl 2.
II. Basic Adaptation for RM Use
The filling modifier in ES can be translated from DP costs for skills. Leveling occurs when the DP cost of the ranks of skills improved meets or exceeds the PC?s current total DP. Meters get filled for most uses, not just successes; this negates the slow-as-heck first levels and speedy later levels. Modifiers will be involved to account for experience curve and improving skills ?past? their limit(i.e.: second rank on a 3 DP skill, or third on a 2/7 DP skill.)
The filling of the meter would be represented by simple tick/tally marks. The meter itself would be the number of tick marks needed to gain the next rank. Not ranks are gained, not 1% as in ES. This adaptation would only affect game play, not character creation. Giving players 750 tick marks to distribute would be ridiculous, and would probably reduce down to ?I?ll put ticks in 1-Handed Edged until I get the next rank? anyways.
"Even the most free roaming video game in the world still has to rely on programmed quest resolution triggers.  Only table-top RPGs make any solution possible.  Even ones not originally intended by the GM.  You  will never replace that." --Rivstyx

Offline Justin

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Skill advancement, ES-style P2
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2008, 02:29:40 PM »
III. Weighing Priorities
Different skills will advance faster than others, those being the ones with lower DP costs. The scale can be set two different ways: either 1 tick for everything and the total required is variable per skill, or the total required is static(say, 200) and more primary skills get more than 1 tick per use. Since I do characters on Excel, I decided to keep it as simple as possible for my players, and set tick-gaining as standard and have Excel compute the required number of ticks.
III. A. DP Costs
?Greater than?( > ) will represent a faster developing skill, and so have less required ticks for the next rank, all other factors being equal.
a/b/c(where a=c) > a/b/c(where a<c) > a/b > a
a > b(when a > b, duh.)
Example:  3/3/3 > 3/4/4 > 3/7 > 3 > 4
Looking at ?3/7 > 3? more closely, I figure either skill can gain 2 ranks over 2 levels by spending 6 DP, but only the first can get 2 ranks in one level, even if it does cost 10 DP. Standard RM rules wouldn?t even allow the later to gain 2 ranks, and an option allows it at the cost of 3/20 or 3/25, I don?t remember.
III. B. Frequency of Possible Use
This section ignores abusers of the system; they can be handled via in-game affects like being tired or negative NPC interaction. (How would you treat someone who was constantly Seducing or Sprinting everywhere?)
Some skills can be used at the drop of a hat. Others rarely have opportunities arise. While that is okay for some skills, for the fun of the game some skills should advance quicker than their DP cost would suggest. Others will need to be delayed so that levels do not happen too quickly. (ES players are familiar with how often Athletics goes up when you run everywhere.) For examples, General Perception is used constantly, where as Advertising doesn?t happen all that much. I don?t want everyone gaining 2-3 ranks in General Perception constantly, and I don?t want it to take 10 lvls for one rank of Advertising.
For simplicity?s sake, skills are described as either frequent, average, or uncommon usage.
III. C. Skill Types
Granted, part of III.B. depends on the type of game run; a game heavy in intrigue and city-based may have many more opportunities for Advertising, Falsification, and Administration than my games. And I would suggest that anytime you are developing a new mechanic you may want to track your data with more divisions than you initially think necessary. Therefore I am classifying skills as Combat, Hits, Academic, Applied, Magical, or Athletic. Athletic are those that are mostly physical; repetition alone will improve the skill. Sprinting, Distance Running, and Tumbling are good representatives. Academic skills are those purely based on reason and/or recall. Ex: any Lore. Applied are those skill which more obviously need both instruction and execution to improve. Wood Crafting, Athletic Games, Tactics fall into that group. The groups Combat, Hits, and Magical are just to pay those types of skills more close attention and possibly treat them differently.
"Even the most free roaming video game in the world still has to rely on programmed quest resolution triggers.  Only table-top RPGs make any solution possible.  Even ones not originally intended by the GM.  You  will never replace that." --Rivstyx

Offline Justin

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Skill advancement, ES-style , P3
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2008, 02:32:02 PM »
IV. Initial Specification
**Parts of this are continuing to be determined as I work on it.**
IV. A. Translation of DP Costs to Ticks-Needed
a/b ::  Average a & b. (Here-to: ave{a,b})
a/a/a ::  a
a/b/b :: ave{ave{a,b},b}  (Favors slightly toward b compared to ave{a,b,b}.)
a ::  Currently ave{a,25}, but I don?t like the large number that generated. I went to bed before trying alternatives, but I?ve thought of: ave{a,3*a}, ave{a,10+a}, ave{a,20}, ave{a,4*a}.
IV. B. Ticks-Needed Modifiers
Every 5 levels doubles the ticks required. To smooth out the curve, I made it go up a tenth for each of the proceeding levels. (This looks like: 1.1x, 1.2x, 1.3x, 1.4x, 1.5x, 2x, 2.1x, 2.2x, 2.3x?.) Skills advancing quicker than they could under standard rules are slightly penalized. The ticks-needed are increased by 33% while the DP gained is only increased by 25% or 1(the higher). Frequent-use skills are increased by 33%, and uncommonly used skills are decreased by 50%. A character?s RE bonus will apply directly as a percentage reduction to all types except Combat and Athletics. (Yes, negative RE bonuses increase the required ticks.) I am considering doubling the weight of RE for the Academic type. I have not been able to study the numbers yet to see if there needs to be a modifier based on the skill type.
IV. C. Gaining Ticks
Quickly, ?real? usage gives more than practice. Practice and studying is in 1-hour blocks.
"Even the most free roaming video game in the world still has to rely on programmed quest resolution triggers.  Only table-top RPGs make any solution possible.  Even ones not originally intended by the GM.  You  will never replace that." --Rivstyx

Offline Joshua24601

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Re: Skill advancement, ES-style
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2008, 02:57:11 PM »
I thought about doing something like this for a RMFRP game I'm in, but the skill categories in FRP make it more difficult to do.  Plus the rest of the players wouldn't go for the extra paperwork.

One of the questions I asked myself is what to do with lore skills.  Successful (or unsuccessful) use of Fauna Lore shouldn't necessarily increase your skill.
Looking at a giraffe and successfully recalling it's name, diet and lifestyle won't help you to know similar information about a Panda Bear.  However successfully accessing memories about a giraffe does reinforce those memories, and make it easier to recall in the future, so there is a value to it.

Game Mechanics wise I was considering giving very limited 'ticks' for successful use of lore type skills (could translate to a frequent skill with normal ticks in your system) and lots of ticks for studying/researching/being taught.  This would mean, that much like in the ES games, you'd need to have trainers available.

Also how would new skills be acquired?  Do they need to be trained, or would every character have every skill.. some simply at level 0 that need to be used to advance.
The day that our schools are well funded and the Airforce has to hold a bake sale to buy a new bomber, will be a good day!

Offline Joshua24601

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Re: Skill advancement, ES-style
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2008, 03:02:50 PM »
Another note: if each PC's DP total is based on developmental stats (like it is normally, rather then a flat number), the value of developmental stats is actually reversed.  A lower DP amount per level is preferable, because the higher you have the slower you level (effecting your spellcasting, resistances and so on).

You should consider using a flat DP per level for all PC's..
The day that our schools are well funded and the Airforce has to hold a bake sale to buy a new bomber, will be a good day!

Offline Dax

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Re: Skill advancement, ES-style
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2008, 03:15:27 PM »
There are some systems with learning-by-doing development systems around.
Lore skills are mostly solved this way:
First you encounter something you don't know (skill check failed).
Afterward you get new information (by observation, a book or person), make a new skill check (perhaps with a penalty), succeded and you learned something (=improvement).
____

BTW I've heard than many groups do have such an improvement system in their desk, but don't use it.
I'm currently testplaying mine ...  (RMC unfortunately on a very slow rate).
R.I.P.    rpgrm.com

Offline Justin

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Re: Skill advancement, ES-style
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2008, 03:37:34 PM »
One of the questions I asked myself is what to do with lore skills.  Successful (or unsuccessful) use of Fauna Lore shouldn't necessarily increase your skill.
Looking at a giraffe and successfully recalling it's name, diet and lifestyle won't help you to know similar information about a Panda Bear.  However successfully accessing memories about a giraffe does reinforce those memories, and make it easier to recall in the future, so there is a value to it.

That is an issue I will need to consider. Thanks.
Possibly "new", no matter the skill, should always be worth more.
Also, other houserule stuff, I use the ranks in lores to represent knowledge and the bonus to recall it on the fly/under pressure. I may develop a ruling for rank increases earned when there was no source of new knowledge being converted into a bonus instead of a rank.

Also how would new skills be acquired?  Do they need to be trained, or would every character have every skill.. some simply at level 0 that need to be used to advance.

The general way I run my game is any knowledge can be self-taught up to rank 5. After that, some source--book or tutor--with at least 2 ranks higher must be referenced to increase the skill more than 1 rank/lvl. But learning more on your own is possible 1 rank at a time.
"Even the most free roaming video game in the world still has to rely on programmed quest resolution triggers.  Only table-top RPGs make any solution possible.  Even ones not originally intended by the GM.  You  will never replace that." --Rivstyx