Author Topic: Why is GM Law not "core?"  (Read 6172 times)

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Offline GoblynByte

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Why is GM Law not "core?"
« on: January 26, 2008, 09:34:50 PM »
So I've noticed it mentioned in several places that the RMC team has been disbanded because the core products are completed.  What about GM Law?  If this is an emulation of RM2, and GM Law was an integral part of RM2, why has the team been dismantled before that product is done?

Just curious.  ;)
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Offline Marc R

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Re: Why is GM Law not "core?"
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2008, 12:56:39 AM »
As to the books, check the "Product pending" schedule here:

http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=1537.0

Beyond that, you'll need official word from someone official.
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: Why is GM Law not "core?"
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2008, 07:06:18 AM »
I'll venture a guess...

In the old days there was Arms Law, Spell law and Character/Campaign Law.  No GM Law.  GM Law evolved with RMSS.

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Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Why is GM Law not "core?"
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2008, 07:44:51 AM »
Core == those products absolutely required to play

Campaign Law does fall into that category. It is not required for you to be able to play RMC.

Offline Marc R

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Re: Why is GM Law not "core?"
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2008, 10:31:38 AM »
anything actually day to day needed we actually included in CL. . .I think we did 3 of the 4 sections, just not "Worldbuilding"
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Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Why is GM Law not "core?"
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2008, 10:44:22 AM »
So I've noticed it mentioned in several places that the RMC team has been disbanded because the core products are completed.  What about GM Law?  If this is an emulation of RM2, and GM Law was an integral part of RM2, why has the team been dismantled before that product is done?

First off, RMC is not an emulation of RM2, nor was it ever presented as such. It was presented as a cleaning up, and re-organization of the core RM2 rules. It was also presented that ICE would be making some minor changes as well as some additions. That is not an emulation.

Also, the RMC Team was organized for a specific purpose. That purpose was completed, so the team was disbanded. Its purpose, and the deal made for accomplishing that purpose complete.

However, many members of the former RMC Team are working on Campaign Law, but that is considered a completely different project because it falls under a different contract, and has different criteria than the original deal for the core books.


Offline GoblynByte

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Re: Why is GM Law not "core?"
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2008, 11:08:54 AM »
First off, RMC is not an emulation of RM2, nor was it ever presented as such. It was presented as a cleaning up, and re-organization of the core RM2 rules. It was also presented that ICE would be making some minor changes as well as some additions. That is not an emulation.

Fair enough.  Emulation might have been a bad term.  I really chose that out of a lack of a better term.  I certainly didn't mean to imply it was "less" of a product than RM2.  I apologize if that was the impression I gave.  You did wonders in making a great game better.

Quote
However, many members of the former RMC Team are working on Campaign Law, but that is considered a completely different project because it falls under a different contract, and has different criteria than the original deal for the core books.

I also referred to the incorrect product.  I did mean Campaign Law, not GM Law.  I guess since that was included in the original "core" book for RM2 it would have been considered part of the "basic" information for gaming.  I mean, there are a lot of new GMs out there who don't know this information and would consider it "required for play."

I guess I just wondered why it wasn't considered "core" in regards to the involvement of the same team that did the other RMC books since it was part of the "core" products of the product which was being cleaned up.
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Offline ictus

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Re: Why is GM Law not "core?"
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2008, 11:59:25 AM »
Core == those products absolutely required to play

Campaign Law does fall into that category. It is not required for you to be able to play RMC.

I disagree - Core to me was and is the core 3 books from RM2, and though most material was covered in RMC core there were some sections omitted. After all just having the material for game play without a world to play in or examples of adventure creation and use isn't a finished RPG.

For experienced players only having CL, SL, C&T and AL is fine, but not everyone is experienced and if they haven't got what is a finished game they may not know how to develop a dynamic interesting and above all playable setting, and may turn to other systems in such cases.

That being said I suspect the new 'GM Law' or perhaps 'Campaign Law 2' will be a more complete improvement on the original, though for me it should be classed as core and not a supplement.



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Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Why is GM Law not "core?"
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2008, 12:19:09 PM »
Core == those products absolutely required to play

Campaign Law does fall into that category. It is not required for you to be able to play RMC.

I disagree

And that is your prerogative, however that doesn't change the point that according to ICE's definition of what is core, Campaign Law is not considered to be core.


Offline ictus

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Re: Why is GM Law not "core?"
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2008, 01:18:46 PM »
Each person will have their own personal definition of what they see as core, and that can vary wildly between differing styles of play, though excluding it from core is a little strong, perhaps you should say it is a key book that to some may be seen as core.

That way you can make it clear that it isn't a supplement and is in reality part of the basis for gaming using the RMC/RM2 system

But then again you know my views on this product as they are on record along with yours. This is simply to do with the products perception by those using it rather than those producing it.



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Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Why is GM Law not "core?"
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2008, 01:37:39 PM »
Andrew, it is really quite simple. If it is not absolutely required for play, it isn't core. End of story.

As for being a "key" or important book? All books for a system are "key" or important in some manner, in some degree, to some customers. The point being that they do not all hold the same importance to all individuals, nor do they do so for the same reasons.

Campaign Law is basically worthless to the average player as it contains nothing for them. However, it will be an excellent supplement for GMs, but it still is not essential for a GM to have, no matter how we might wish folks to think it is.



Offline GoblynByte

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Re: Why is GM Law not "core?"
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2008, 02:28:27 PM »
Campaign Law is basically worthless to the average player as it contains nothing for them. However, it will be an excellent supplement for GMs, but it still is not essential for a GM to have, no matter how we might wish folks to think it is.

I suppose the same could be said for Creatures and Treasures (not needed by the average player, but essential for the GM), but I see what you mean.  Campaigns can be far more easily designed independantly and without the aid of a specialized supplement than can monsters and treasures.

Was Campaign Law originally (in RM1) not in the same book as Character Law?  Perhaps it was just a choice of the previous ICE to include it as sort of a bonus item when RM2 came about.  ;)
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Offline ictus

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Re: Why is GM Law not "core?"
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2008, 05:26:28 PM »
Andrew, it is really quite simple. If it is not absolutely required for play, it isn't core. End of story.

As for being a "key" or important book? All books for a system are "key" or important in some manner, in some degree, to some customers. The point being that they do not all hold the same importance to all individuals, nor do they do so for the same reasons.

Campaign Law is basically worthless to the average player as it contains nothing for them. However, it will be an excellent supplement for GMs, but it still is not essential for a GM to have, no matter how we might wish folks to think it is.


And that is your view, I have a different view, which is no less valid than yours.

As for not being required, you and I have played RPGs for years so material like that is second nature, if you are a new GM it is in reality essential to play their game, or at least get them started on the right footing.




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Offline Zhaleskra

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Re: Why is GM Law not "core?"
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2008, 06:00:25 PM »
And that is your view, I have a different view, which is no less valid than yours.

My powers of pre-cognition, based on blatantly obvious factors, predict you getting a response in navy text. I have a feeling this is the official stance of ICE.

I'd rather have a company blatantly say Core is only equal to "actually required to run the game" over "we want you to force whatever complete book of Splat we came up with on your GM and make him (or her) accept it as core".
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Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Why is GM Law not "core?"
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2008, 06:43:44 PM »
And that is your view, I have a different view, which is no less valid than yours.

My powers of pre-cognition, based on blatantly obvious factors, predict you getting a response in navy text. I have a feeling this is the official stance of ICE.

 ;D Actually, I try to avoid using the colors whenever possible.

However, what I have been saying is the same as ICE's viewpoint, as stated by Bruce in newsletters and other public communications. I shouldn't need to mark it in navy blue.

And as for validity of viewpoints, since ICE is the company that publishes these products, that makes ICE's viewpoint more valid than anybody else's viewpoint when it comes to ICE's own products.                                                                                   

I'd rather have a company blatantly say Core is only equal to "actually required to run the game" over "we want you to force whatever complete book of Splat we came up with on your GM and make him (or her) accept it as core".

The new ICE has always been more open with its customers than many other companies. And part of that is being frank when asked "what do we need to play", we respond "the core books" and that answers the question, especially when we are direct in stating what we consider the core books to be.

In regards to the comment about Campaign Law being essential for new GMs......

Looking at this realistically RM never has been, nor is, a gateway game. That means that most RM GMs came to RM from other games, and actually have GMing experience before them.

Add to this the fact that a good bit of Campaign Law (in RM2 - you cannot knowledgeably discuss the proposed  contents for the RMC Campaign Law) was centered on setting creation more than anything else. There was relatively little content in it that would have been helpful for actually teaching a new GM how to GM.

Plus, as Lordmiller pointed out....

anything actually day to day needed we actually included in CL. . .I think we did 3 of the 4 sections, just not "Worldbuilding"



Offline Marc R

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Re: Why is GM Law not "core?"
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2008, 07:40:28 PM »
I suspect you're both right, just coming at it from different angles.

I'd agree with Tim that "Core" at least in the context he presented, are the basic mechanics. . .If anything I'd trim his core backward further to eliminate all the options and fluf material and call about 1/4 of CL, 1/2 of AL and about 1/3 of SL the "Core". (Or say RMX plus a handful of material.)

You don't really need much to just barely play RM, which RMX demonstrates fairly well.

I agree with Andrew in his context, which is more akin to what's needed to play the way the average player/GM uses the system. . .campaign law materials were much more about customizing the campaign. . .which every person I've ever played with does. (I've yet to meet someone who plays pure vanilla, no options or house rules Rolemaster in ShadowWorld.). . .so in the sense of "What would you need to play the way you want to" most people would consider some part or portion of the other 3/4 of CL, 1/2 of AL and 2/3 of SL plus CT and any other suppliments you choose to use. . .that's your "Personal Core". . . .

Only issue with Andrew's definition is that if you tossed everyone's personal core in a bucket you'd end up with "Everything ICE's ever published" plus "A load of stuff stolen from other publishers" and "All that homebrew stuff people invented.". . .which is a lot. . .only problem with the minimalist version is that it's kinda vanilla and limited compared to the scope of most actual games in play.

Like, as of 3 years ago I'd call the 4 basic RM2 books plus RoCo1 and RoCo2 my "Personal Core". . .but I certainly didn't play with all the stuff in those 6 books, and added a lot of my own stuff.

So you're both right, just right based on different assumptions of what the question is. . .can we take it down a notch?
« Last Edit: January 27, 2008, 07:46:05 PM by LordMiller »
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Offline ictus

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Re: Why is GM Law not "core?"
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2008, 01:37:18 AM »
And as for validity of viewpoints, since ICE is the company that publishes these products, that makes ICE's viewpoint more valid than anybody else's viewpoint when it comes to ICE's own products. 
It may be more valid, but it isn't more relivant as it is the consumers view that is more relevant.

for example Stanley Kubricks A Clockwork Orange was intended and in his view point was an ironic joke about society, however those watching it viewed it as glorifying violence, Stanley Kubrick produced the film, it was his joke, so his opinion is more valid? No when he saw how people reacted to the film he took on board those opinions and banned the film himself, as he saw how it was perceived as a more relevant viewpoint than his.
                                                                                 

Quote
In regards to the comment about Campaign Law being essential for new GMs......

Looking at this realistically RM never has been, nor is, a gateway game. That means that most RM GMs came to RM from other games, and actually have GMing experience before them.

As RMX shows it can be and is a gateway game, and is marketed as such, and has been played as such for nearly 3 decades.

As for the rest, I don't get why there is such a desire to not have a GM oriented books as part of core, it makes sence, but as you say it is your company, so what makes sence to me with my half of the info may not make sence to you with your half of the info.

But at the end of the day it is the fans and how they view something that counts most, and their spending on these products that means most, so let's see when it comes out how people see it, after all it isn't available yet.



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Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: Why is GM Law not "core?"
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2008, 06:20:42 AM »
RMC is not RMX.

Core, for the purposes of the creation of the RMC Team, is specifically as identified by ICE.

Your own personal belief as to what is Core can differ and likely would differ for each and every player/GM.

The material that was not included in CL (due to space and desire to focus content) will be included in a future book.

Can we let this drop now?
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Offline ictus

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Re: Why is GM Law not "core?"
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2008, 07:01:43 AM »
Not a problem, we all have our views, which are all valid, after all it would be a boring world if we all agreed all the time.

point of not - RMX is RMC lite, and as such is interlinked in many many ways.



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Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Why is GM Law not "core?"
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2008, 07:09:54 AM »
And as for validity of viewpoints, since ICE is the company that publishes these products, that makes ICE's viewpoint more valid than anybody else's viewpoint when it comes to ICE's own products. 
It may be more valid, but it isn't more relivant as it is the consumers view that is more relevant.

Sorry, but in this case no. ICE produces what amounts to guidebooks, not works of artistic expression. And that means you cannot attempt to apply the same points of reasoning as you would to a novel or movie.

for example Stanley Kubricks A Clockwork Orange was intended and in his view point was an ironic joke about society, however those watching it viewed it as glorifying violence, Stanley Kubrick produced the film, it was his joke, so his opinion is more valid? No when he saw how people reacted to the film he took on board those opinions and banned the film himself, as he saw how it was perceived as a more relevant viewpoint than his.

Right, a novel or movie being compared to an rpg? An artistic expression against a collection of rules and advice? Sorry, but this analogy just cannot be used as it is comparing apples and bananas.

Quote
In regards to the comment about Campaign Law being essential for new GMs......

Looking at this realistically RM never has been, nor is, a gateway game. That means that most RM GMs came to RM from other games, and actually have GMing experience before them.

As RMX shows it can be and is a gateway game, and is marketed as such, and has been played as such for nearly 3 decades.

Pardon? RMX is an attempt, less than a year old, to create a version of RM that could be used as a gateway game. Whether or not that attempt is successful remains to be seen and most likely won't be seen for several years. However, RMX was not and is not considered as a "core" RMC product either.

Nor has RMX been around for nearly 3 decades as your comment seems to imply.

I also don't think that Rolemaster has been marketed or used/played as a gateway game, ever. Let alone for nearly 3 decades.

When I say gateway game, I mean a game that leads people to roleplaying. A gamer's first game. This means that MERP could have been considered a gateway game, but Rolemaster wouldn't be, and couldn't be. Only time will tell if RMX might possibly be considered as a gateway game.

As for the rest, I don't get why there is such a desire to not have a GM oriented books as part of core, it makes sence, but as you say it is your company, so what makes sence to me with my half of the info may not make sence to you with your half of the info.

But at the end of the day it is the fans and how they view something that counts most, and their spending on these products that means most, so let's see when it comes out how people see it, after all it isn't available yet.

As I said above, each fan will determine what is and is not important to them. Just because fan x considers a GM book to be important that does not mean that fans a thru w will consider it important.

I also stated above, ICE's definition as to what ICE considers to be a core product:
Core == Those products that are absolutely required in order to play the game

No conditional statements in there, no qualifications, no hemming or hawing. Core is what it is, period, end of story.

This is not a subjective evaluation like you are trying to make it. It is a simple, hard point of fact, nothing else. Without the core books, you cannot play RMC as it was designed to be played (i.e. a fantasy rpg with magic, monsters, and combat).

I already agreed that different products will have a different importance to different games, but I also don't agree with labeling any product as "key" as that comes across, IMO, as a transparent way of trying to say/imply something is core when it isn't.