Topic: Lizardmen in RM - reptile or amphibian?

[thiha]

I've just read the section of Lizardman in the "Races" section of Expresss Additions #3.

It says "...and they are amphibious in nature, equally able to breath air or water."

But, on hearing the word "lizard", I cannot help thinking of "reptile", and in our real world, reptiles cannot breath water like fish or amphibians do. Even the sea snakes and sea turtles have to rise up to the surface once in a while to breath air.

Are the default Lizardmen in Rolemaster reptiles or amphibians? Or either/neither of them???

I know they are folks that live only in our imagination, so anything could happen

[Marc R]

Creatures & Treasures offers two "reptile men"

Lizard like amphibious Sohleugir.

Snake like poisonous bite desert dwelling Sstoi?isslythi.

The amphibious bit of the EA text comes from the description of the Sohleugir. I'd suspect that the Sahaugin of AD&D may either share a common myth source, or one was "inspired" by the other. . .two ocean dwelling lizard looking people with aggression issues. (Neither of which are fish people, which would fit a scaly humanoid that lives in the water.)

So they are amphibious lizard men. . . .definitely not amphibians, none of which live in the ocean that I can think of, and they definitely have a tough scaly hide. . .then again, what Class and Order would you call a Chimera? Taxonomy gets a bit hazy in a fantasy setting.

The Sstoi?isslythi are bipeds, so they're mostly "snake like", since I'd call a snake with limbs a lizard.

Then again, as GM, you could easily just ignore the amphibious bit, and make the Sohleugir land creatures, if that's what you wanted. It doesn't seem to have any effect on stats. (Other than you can't drown one.)

[thiha]

So they are amphibious lizard men. . . .definitely not amphibians, none of which live in the ocean that I can think of, and they definitely have a tough scaly hide. . .then again, what Class and Order would you call a Chimera? Taxonomy gets a bit hazy in a fantasy setting.

Yeh, fantasy consists of mixture of everything we imagine . I should have that in my mind.
I didn't realize the Sohleugir is Sahuagin-like creature. But sure, Sahuagin is indeed amphibious as well as lizard-like .
Now I get it, what kind of creature "amphibious lizardman" is.
Thanks a lot.

[Old Man]

My game world has both races related to each other (the Kif created both via their own genetic stock) so they are both bipedal mammals one preferring water (but not water-breathing) and one preferring dry lands.

Ciao,
Old Man

[Grinnen Baeritt]

In D&D terms I like to think of the Sahaugin as amphibious Trogyodytes.....

...though of course Troglodytes are almost totally different in Rolemaster.

[yammahoper]

So...which is faster?  The African Sahaugin, or the European?

 

lynn

[Marc R]

Trogs in RM are a lot like Morlocks.

[Tarek]

But, on hearing the word "lizard", I cannot help thinking of "reptile", and in our real world, reptiles cannot breath water like fish or amphibians do. Even the sea snakes and sea turtles have to rise up to the surface once in a while to breath air.

Actuallly modern amphibians and repiles both lack the ability to breathe underwater in their adult form.

The larval form of amphibians possess gills, as did some of the earliest (now extinct) amphibians.

Personnaly, I've always used Sohleugir as air breathing reptiles with a great capacity for conserving air (as dolphins) and using sub-aquatic farming techniques to produce breatahble air within their underground cities (this is similar to, but before <shudder> Jar-Jar Binks and co.).

This not only makes the race more 'realistic', it has allowed me to use their cities as adventure locations on a couple of occasions, while true water breathers would require much more work.

[Monteblanco]

Actuallly modern amphibians and repiles both lack the ability to breathe underwater in their adult form.

The larval form of amphibians possess gills, as did some of the earliest (now extinct) amphibians.

Actually, all amphibians are able to exchange gases through their skins and, in some species, this is the source of all their oxygen. Moreover, some salamanders do keep their gills as adults. No reptile can do that, although a few marine turtles can actually get s little bit of oxygen by filling the cloaca with water.

The whole point is moot. Most people cannot tell the actual difference between amphibians and reptiles except in the most common cases. As such, why people from a quasi-medieval fantasy world would do better?

[Marc R]

The weakness of taxonamy really becomes an issue with "what would you classify a creature made of living stone?" or the chimera example above.

'sides, "amphibious" doesn't always mean "Amphibian". . .plenty of plants, reptiles, mammals or insects are described as "Amphibious".

[Tarek]

While the taxonomy of magically created creatures is obviously of limited relevance, those of more mundane creatures is. In this case the difference in biology between amphibians and reptiles is very important as it would have considerable affect on the nature of their culture.

For example, amphibious reptiles would be able be able to establish inland colonies, while this would be extremely unlikely for amphibians due to their  different breeding methods. Reptiles could be base aquatic cities in salt or fresh water, but very few amphibians tolertate, much less thrive in salt water.

With amphibians you also have to look at how they would relate to the larval state of their young, while this would not apply to reptiles.

While Fantasy RPG's are just that, and at times require a suspension of disbelief, sticking to some level of real world basis not only makes belief easier, it can add greater depth to the creature backgrounds by considering what it needs to survive, and what it needs to flouriish. This is even more crucial when dealing with intelligent races, rather than mere 'monsters'.