Topic: Parrying (Arms Law p15)

[Marc R]

I find that last iffy.

Like, for melee parry, if a mage has one rank in staff, and no other bonuses.

OB 5

The rules won't allow the mage to parry for 50 DB, then make a -45 OB attack.

That would fall under "You don't have enough to go around". You shouldn't be able to create DB out of nothing that way.

Essentially, if you have a 50 OB, you can make a 50% attack action at 0 OB, if you have a 40 OB, you need to devote 60% to pull off a 0 OB attack. . .you are essentially too unskilled to sucessfully accomplish an attack in the minimum allowable time.

Allowing a 5 OB character to 50% attack for a -45 OB attack is exactly how the rules read, but it's certainly one of those instances where the rules seem to violate common sense.

Hmm, that's not an aspect that ever came up, or was discussed when we were doing AL. . .

Likely, these are house rule applications of my group, but another instance of the same logic:

Character with 50 OB has injury penalties of -30. When asking for OB/DB splits, all penalties are imposed before the split. i.e. 50-30 you only have 20 to assign.

Character with 50 OB has spell bonuses of +30. When asking for OB/DB splits, all penalties are calculated before the split. i.e. 50+30=80 to assign.

Again, don't have AL in front of me. . .I think in the "offensive capabilities" section you might impose all penalties to get your OB. . .and then you split it. . .I think activity and +/- "other items" is on that table.

The rule of not allowing a -OB attack is almost definitely a house rule, but I think in the example vroom gave above you could not assign that 10 OB left to melee parry due to the order of calculations.

I'm not really sure one way or the other though.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Missile Parry is a separate, distinct action, not part of a melee attack. Being separate, and because it requires declaration at the beginning of the round, it would be resolved first. Then you would start calculating for your melee attack if you are going to make one.

Thus, you can make a missile parry, and use any portion of your OB that you want.

Then IF you decide to also make an attack that round, your OB for that is modified by -50 (because that is all the activity you have left), and by the amount of you OB you moved to DB against the missile.

The remainder is your usable OB for this attack. And that usable OB is then split between attack and parry normally.

Now, the rules don't really go into what happens if modifiers reduce your usable OB to a negative number.

So, in Vroomfogle's example, the character is left with a -40 OB, and that would be accurate. Whether or not he can actually make an attack with a negative OB is beside the point, and left up to the GM, as I don't think RM actually says you cannot make an attack with a negative OB.


The order of the steps would be as follows:
1) Declare action before round (and since you must declare the Missile Parry before the round, it will resolve first and foremost).

2) Resolve Missile Parry (i.e. how much of available OB are you putting into the missile parry -- at this point, you still have full OB available because you have not declared an attack nor put any of your OB into DB). Since this action only requires 50% of your activity for the round, it allows you to do other things once it is completed.

3) Declare your next action. If this is an attack (an action that requires 50%-100% activity), you only have 50% activity left, so you automatically get a -50 modifier. Since you also used some of your OB for the missile parry, that amount gets subtracted as well. The remainder is your usable OB for this attack, and you can split it between attack and parry however you wish so long as remainder is a positive number. If your remainder is negative, you can still make an attack (RM has no rules against attacking with a negative OB), but you cannot parry with a negative number.

If you go back and read Vroom's example, he didn't say anything about parrying with that -40.

Again, don't have AL in front of me. . .I think in the "offensive capabilities" section you might impose all penalties to get your OB. . .and then you split it. . .I think activity and +/- "other items" is on that table.

For the melee attack action, yes. But the missile parry is not part of that, it is a separate action, that siphons off your OB prior to the start of a melee attack action. Missile Parry is not part of an attack action.

[vroomfogle]

Yeah this still doesn't allow you to parry with more then you have for OB.   Your missile parry is limited by your OB.     

Drop the whole missile parry thing for a minute and take someone with a +25 OB and they move 50% of the round.     No reason they can't then attack with -25.    Or if they want to full parry (25 DB) and attack 50% they'd have a -50.     Nothing in this rules would allow for parrying and getting more DB then you have OB.

[Marc R]

Yeah matt, I suspected that was all house rulesy stuff anyhoo, play long enough in one way and it gets ironed into your brain that way.

Seems we agree you couldn't use the 10 OB for parry DB and attack at -50. . .

Seems odd to attack at -50, but if you attack unskilled you attack at -25. I guess it's actually conceivable to attack at some really idiotic number like -200 or more. . .though only an open ended roll would make that worthwhile. . .

Tim, I think we crossed paths in there somewhere, we're on the same page, but we failed the handshake.

The question I was asking applies inside your step 3.

After aleady declaring and performing a missile parry action you have used 60 OB for missile parry, and 50% activity.

You then move onto next declaration.

You declare a melee attack, is the OB/DB split declared before or after you re-calculate remaining OB? Do you calculate your final OB with all modifications, then do your OB/DB split for parry? Or do your OB/DB split for parry, and then make all the modifications? Is it both, do some mods only apply before and some after the split?

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

You declare a melee attack, is the OB/DB split declared before or after you re-calculate remaining OB? Do you calculate your final OB with all modifications, then do your OB/DB split for parry? Or do your OB/DB split for parry, and then make all the modifications? Is it both, do some mods only apply before and some after the split?

I would have to say that you first determine your usable OB (i.e. subtract the -50 for only making a 50% activity attack, and subtract any other mods such as the amount used in missile parry, or any other mods that might apply like those from damage taken) before you determine you OB/DB split for the attack (you have to know what is actually available before you ration it out)

And here it is repeated without the asides...

determine your usable OB before you determine you OB/DB split for the attack

[Marc R]

So far a missile parry:

if you begin the round under a -30 to all actions injury penalty, and had an OB of 30, you'd be unable to missile parry, since your usable OB would be 0?

You could not Missile parry for 30, then later make a 50% melee attack at:

30 OB - 30 Injury - 30 Missile parry - 50 (50% attack) = -50 OB?

It's funny. . .I do see how the rules work this way, but I cannot recall ever:

1) Combining missile parry with anything other than movement (so used full parry)
2) Attacking with a starting OB in the negatives. (I have attacked with a negative if you took defender DB or other defender mods into consideration.)

[vroomfogle]

I've had several situations in play where a character is at enough injury penalties that his starting OB is < 0.   He can attack, but nothing to parry with.   If your usable OB at the start of the round is < 0 you can't parry of any sort.   If it's a 10 to begin with you could missile parry at 10 then attack with a total of -50 (but no melee parry).

[Marc R]

I think I once had a mage with a staff OB at 1st level of -3. . .but I think he never had a chance to bring it into play. (Stat penalty.)

[yammahoper]

Wow.  This thread just blew up!.

Leave for a day of fun in the sun...and cold.  This is Michigan in November.

lynn

[Crypt]

yes, i'm amazed to see how it evolve. Roleplaying games are really funny matters.
(almost as funny as physic theories wars and finnish metal.)