Topic: Parrying (Arms Law p15)

[Crypt]

Parrying missile fire:
"a defender parrying a missile may reduce their OB...and shift that bonus to their DB"
VS
"must also have a shield (a weapon won't do)..."

lol  strange, bizarre, weird, monty pythesque....

what OB to DB is it ?
(IMO i would handle this like a Harp Shield Parry, simply by doubling the shield bonus)



Parrying Melee Attack:
That's a bit strange to say "They must also have a shield, suitable terrain or a melee weapon to get the full benefit of a parry." => shield ? What a shield have to do with parrying ? Isn't the shield DB automatic ?

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Parrying is basically the shifting from a more offensive stance and movement pattern to a more defensive one. This is not an all-or-nothing shift, so it is measured through a reduction to your OB (of the weapon you are using at the time -- if you don't have a weapon, your OB is considered to be (in RMC/RMX) the average of your St & Ag).

In regards to missiles, please note that there are several conditions to that..
1) You MUST have a shield. No shield, no parrying missiles, period.
2) You MUST be aware that you will be the target of a missile attack. (and in THIS instance, missile means any ranged attack that uses an attack/critical table for damage, even elemental bolt spells).
3) You MUST declare your parry before the round begins. This goes along with knowing (or believing) that you will be the target of a ranged attack.

Now, it also says that you can abort actions to parry missile fire if you have enough activity percentage left, but this kinda contradicts #3 above, so I would personally scrap this part.

[Crypt]

do you mean that Parrying missile fire DB = Shield DB + (st bonus+ag bonus)/2 + prof/level bonus?
The (st+ag)/2 + prof/level bonus being the actual parry part (OB to DB.)

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

do you mean that Parrying missile fire DB = Shield DB + (st bonus+ag bonus)/2 + prof/level bonus?
The (st+ag)/2 + prof/level bonus being the actual parry.

Only if the character is not holding/using a weapon at the same time.

If the character is wielding a weapon at the time, then his training in THAT weapon can be beneficial, and so his full OB for the weapon may be drawn upon (i.e. shifted to parry) if he desires.

[Crypt]

what  ? (E confusion crit)

I would agree and be happy if you 've just said "yes."  :'(

Now i'm really confused => i cannot understand how a weapon can affect missile parry only when a shield is hold.


only

Parrying missile fire DB = Shield DB + (st bonus+ag bonus)/2 + prof/level bonus

makes sense, IMHO.

unless weapon OB could also be used to parry a missile when not holding a shield. (but i wouldn't like that neither.)



I think i would simply forbid weapon skill OB to DB for missile parry (that's less confusing and does not contradicts the 02-04 table....) and apply that => Parrying missile fire DB=Shield DB + (st bonus+ag bonus)/2 + prof/level bonus. 

(and add a 100% action Shield Parry like in HARP which would only use 2Xshield DB without any OB to DB.)

[yammahoper]

Well, do what I do, house rule it and do not allow parry with a weapon skill, just DB for Qu, Items, Shield, Cover, etc.

House rules are great.

lynn

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Crypt -- back to basics....

If you have a weapon and a shield in hand, you may take a more defensive posture overall (i.e. parrying), and parry ranged attacks as outlined above. Each weapon skill is basically a small "combat style", and thus you can shift that style into a more defensive mode, and that will aid against the missile attack (within certain limits mentioned above).

If you have ONLY a shield, I said that using average of st/ag (and yes, I agree with your extrapolation of including Combat level bonuses) would be something that I considered permissible (even though the rules do not mention this).

If you don't have a shield, take cover...

Is that any clearer?

[Marc R]

"Parrying missile fire" is a declared, stand alone action distinct from normal parry. .it's sort of all or nothing.

You get the shield DB bonus either way regardless, so just ignore that for now.

To "Parry Missile Fire" you must devote 50% of your activity to the action, no more, no less.

In doing so, you get +50 DB vs missile fire, and have consumed 50% activity. (So you may make a missile attack, move 50% or melee at -50)

The only iffy ground here is if you have, say a +35 OB with your highest attack, so don't have 50 OB worth of skill to devote to missile parry.

My stand on that is "If your OB is lower than 50, you are insufficiantly skilled to coordinate a missile parry maneuver." so I'd just not allow that action to be taken, I'd ask the player if they wanted to dodge.

[Crypt]

i see.

[vroomfogle]

LM,

I don't remember the flat 50 DB from a missile parry.   Where's that stated? 

[Marc R]

It's not,

1) you're shifting 50% action to the missile parry.

2) Having used up 50% action, you are at -50 OB to attack. (For every % less than 100% melee activity you are at -1 to OB)

3) With normal melee parry, if you move 50 DB to parry, you attack at -50 OB.

I'll admit, we could have made that cleaner, but the inference seems clear between 2 and 3.

Could be one of those house rulings I assume is a core rule (Not like that hasn't happened before).

Also, there's a reference somewhere in there about splitting your OB up among parry, missile parry and your attack. (Which supports the 2 and 3 inference also.)

Don't have the book handy or I'd page/section/paragraph reference.

[Crypt]

I'll admit, we could have made that cleaner,

mainly when a shield-parry table say "Cannot parry missile attacks"...

i understand what you and Rasyr say but i think there is a very funny curse on every RM editions = missile parry has never been clear. Never ! Lol...  And designers seems to take a lot of fun making it even more obscure at every occasion. Naughty boys... that remembers me of some very cool major confusion critical using Chivalry & Sorcery 2.

[Marc R]

I think that you do need a shield, so the "May not parry missile attacks" are lined up on the weapons listed on the shield table, and likely also the targe.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

LM, you are a bit off there...

The Missile Parry requires 50% activity. The amount of OB shifted to DB has nothing to do with this required percentage amount.

Joe has OB of 75, and wants to parry missile about to be fired at him.

He declares parry and it takes 50% of his activity. He can shift any portion of his OB to DB. Joe elects to shift 25 points over (cause he also has a big shield and thinks that will be enough to protect him).

Now, Joe still has 50% activity in which to act. This means he can take a swing at the orc that is in his face.

Joe's OB, for this attack will be zero ==75 -50 (from the activity reduction) - 25 (from the Missile Parry).

Now, if Joe's OB were 150, then he would be much better off. Presuming the same allocation of OB to DB for a missile parry, we get the following numbers. Joe is using full shield (+25) and he has no DB from stats because of his armor. Joe, in this instance is going to put a little more than half of his available OB into parrying the orc in his face...

Joe's original OB = 150
Joe DB vs Missile = 50 (25 shield + 25 parry)
Joe DB vs Orc in face = 40 parry against Orc
Joe's OB for attacking the Orc = 35 (150 -50 (activity reduction) - 25 (missile parry) - 40 (parry Orc))

Activity percentages only reduce skill bonuses on the skill that gets reduced, it has no effect on how much may be applied to parry.

[Crypt]

i've just see there were the same kind of discussion in "Can Elemental Bolts be parried?"

The day i will use RMC (i use HARP now) i will do as i do in HARP, whatever the official version (you ICE staff are too funny ) is =>

- any missile (physical, energical, magical, breath, ...) can be blocked by a shield (the DB of the shield.)
- parrying is not blocking.
- no weapon can be used to parry a missile (no exception)
- Full Shield Block = 100% action, double DB value of the shield. No OB to DB, no parry, no no-weapon stat bonus, no prof/level bonus, just pure clear and nice passive DB (+Qu bonus).

That's simple and keep my sanity.

[vroomfogle]

Yeah, Tim's explanation is how I had thought it would work.   You can shift however much you want, and it only takes 50%.


And regardless of the official ruling, I do not allow elemental bolts to be parried.

I like Crypt's rule above too that does not allow missile parrying of any kind, just he shield DB.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

The RMC missile parry is essentially a shield block. You get to reduce your offensive capabilities in order to perform the block better.

 

BTW.... what sanity? 

[Marc R]

Hmm, so it comes down to a 50 penalty then.

Ala:

Jim has 100 OB

Jim shield parries 50% action, attacks 50% action.

His attack is 100-50 = 50 OB

He can now break that up, so say he puts 20 into missile parry and 20 into melee parry.

So 10 OB, +20 DB vs missiles on one facing and +20 DB vs one melee attacker.

So you loose 50 OB in making the declaration to missile parry?

[vroomfogle]

You only lose the 50 because you are missile parrying for 50%.      The missile parry is separate from the attack action so you do not subtract the 50 before figuring out how much you want to parry.

In other words, let's say you want to missile parry all but 10, and your OB is 70.    You missile parry 60, and you have 50% of the round left.   You want to attack at 50% so that's 10 OB left - 50 = -40 OB.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

You only lose the 50 because you are missile parrying for 50%.      The missile parry is separate from the attack action so you do not subtract the 50 before figuring out how much you want to parry.

In other words, let's say you want to missile parry all but 10, and your OB is 70.    You missile parry 60, and you have 50% of the round left.   You want to attack at 50% so that's 10 OB left - 50 = -40 OB.

Correct