Topic: Armor and realms of magic

[Setorn]

Source - Caster - Spell

Your comments above seemed to say that armor inhibits source-caster interface, I think the rules don't really play out that way. I think armor has no effect on the source-caster interaction, I think it only has an effect on the caster-spell side of things.

Actually, I agree with you that metal does not interfere with power acquisition.  However, I believe the process is a little more complex than source-caster-spell. 

To me the process follows:
Source (primal, raw Essence) – Filter (Aura, Deity or Charisma (Mind)) – Caster – Spell

Converting primal Essence through the filter changes it to more usable, but more limited power, when that change takes place the power that the caster uses reacts to the world around it differently depending on the Realm.  It is not how the caster casts that makes it interact with the environment differently, but how it was filtered.  The Channeling skill implies that all transfers of power (filters) are unaffected by metal regardless as to how it was filtered.  When that filtered primal essence is used to cast it reacts according to the limitations that the filter imposed though the nature of that filters Realm.

[Urbannen]

I think Lord Miller's interpretation is definitive, based on the rules set. 

[Marc R]

There is definitely a filter effect, and a change of "Flavor" in that you cannot channel power between realms. . .although you can transform it. A priest cannot channel to a magician, but they could channel 100 PP to a sorcerer, who channels it to a magician. . .somehow hybrids can not only use both inputs, they can freely change it between their flavors. (This is also I think why hybrids dont have 2 distinct power pools.)

The flavor element is also seen in adders and multipliers.

There are no armor mods I know of to the channeling skill, so you can trade around the filtered/flavored power freely regardless of armor or equipment.

It's only at the stage of spell weaving that metal problems pop up.

I agree that the model is a little more complex, it's more:

Chan: Raw Essence - Diety - Caster - spell

or

Ment: Raw Essence - Mind - Caster- spell

or

Esse: Raw Essence - Aura - Caster - Spell

with only "Arcane" being:

Raw Essence - Caster - Spell

no filter at all.

OTOH the "arcane" element of innate casting would seem to suggest they have something like an organ in their brain that does the filter work for them. (since innate is proto-arcane, but seems about as safe as essence.)

[Setorn]

with only "Arcane" being:

Raw Essence - Caster - Spell

no filter at all.

OTOH the "arcane" element of innate casting would seem to suggest they have something like an organ in their brain that does the filter work for them. (since innate is proto-arcane, but seems about as safe as essence.)

I agree that Arcane as written in RoCo I did not seem to represent the danger involved.  I hope that the new RoCo I will fix that.  I did in my games.

somehow hybrids can not only use both inputs, they can freely change it between their flavors. (This is also I think why hybrids dont have 2 distinct power pools.)

I ran a low magic game where hybrids did have to have two pools of power and their base list needed double power points (one from each realm) while open lists did not, but did need the correct type of power.  You should have seen how many players chose Pure or semi-users in that game.

There is definitely a filter effect, and a change of "Flavor" in that you cannot channel power between realms. . .although you can transform it. ...

The flavor element is also seen in adders and multipliers.

There are no armor mods I know of to the channeling skill, so you can trade around the filtered/flavored power freely regardless of armor or equipment.

It's only at the stage of spell weaving that metal problems pop up.

Yet, what I am saying is that it is not the weaving that makes metal inherently problematic, but wholly the flavor added from the filter.  All transfers/acquisitions of power are unaffected by any type of barrier as they are during weaving. Acquiring power from a deity or the essence fields/flows and channeling the skill are unaffected by metals.  Nevertheless, the more subtle controlled application of power through spell creation/weaving are affected by metal depending on the realm of power and the flavor of that realm as colored by the filter (wow, what a passive voice sentence). 

I feel that if were attempt to divide casting down it looks more like this:
              Source - Fliter-Caster-weaving-effect
 Chan:  Raw Essence - Diety – (the transfer applies flavor) Caster – weaving (limitations due to flavor applied (Metal, inherent limitations due to realm) - effect
or
Ment: Raw Essence - Mind - (the transfer applies flavor) Caster- weaving (limitations due to flavor applied (Metal, inherent limitations due to realm) -effect
or
Esse: Raw Essence - Aura - (the transfer applies flavor) Caster – weaving (limitations due to flavor applied (Metal, inherent limitations due to realm) -effect
(Ignoring Arcane for the time being)

What I am positing is that it is not how the aura is used to weave the spell (which seems clumsy to me), but the flavor added to the power during the transfer. 
Our ideas seem valid in view of the canonical rules and LM, I understand your opinion, but for reasons of clarity and elegance, I disagree.  Nonetheless, we seem to be debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.  However, I am enjoying myself doing it. 

[Marc R]

Flavor might explain somewhat the variations between essence and channeling, but not mentalism.

Mentalists only weave spells with their head. . .so metal on the head is all that matters.

E and C are almost the same in metal response, but Essence is screwed up by dead organic matter also. Mentalism is also messed up by dead organic, in that it's not just "no metal helm" it's "No helm at all".

On one hand, this is likely game mechanics ala "Don't let mages wear armor", but if there's an underlaying logic to it, it likely ties into the "how" of casting.

How mentalism stands apart, seems to suggest similar logic is the cause for the other two.

[Setorn]

Sorry, it has taken me so long to respond, LM, but I have been in dress rehearsal for week for a play.   
I would like to review on what we seem to agree:
1)   The acquisition/transfer of power is not impeded by any material barrier. 
2)   The filter changes the nature of the raw essence making it more usable and safer.
3)   The process of spell casting can be interfered with by material barriers.

What we disagree about is why that aforementioned interference occurs.  You describe the impediment arising from how the caster’s aura is used in casting the spell, specifically what part of the aura is used.  I see the limitation derived from the flavor that the filter adds to the refined raw essence. 

Both have apparent logical limitations (the greatest of which is that we are discussing magic and not science.  Magic is inherently unpredictable and personal): Mine in the fact that the specifics of Mentalism’s limitations are confined to the head covering and yours in that both essence and channeling use the whole of the caster’s aura, while having similar limitations (that would seem to imply a flavor limitation).  These logical limitations would appear to imply a synthesis of our opinions.  I do not like that idea and now for full disclosure:  I do not like your explanation for design reasons.  It sounds clunky. 

It's merely my opinion, but by that logic, the essence user is weaving raw essence into spells with their whole aura, their whole body. Channeling users are also using their whole body aura (they use their soul to manipulate their aura to cast.) mentalism users are only using the aura in the vicinity of their head to weave spells. (Which in my opinion is why their flows tend to be more subtle and objectively a bit weaker in physical effects.). . .metal doesn't interfere with gathering power, it interferes with weaving the raw power into spells. . . .Essence users are doing a raw power-aura-spell weave, so metal blows them the most. Channelers are doing power-soul/spirit-aura-spell weave, so metal hurts them less as they have more control. . .mentalists weaves are focused in the head, so only head metal hurts them. . .that's just my explaination, but it does fit all the game mechanics in the books as is without mods.

I have spoken to a few of my players about your idea and have tried to present the concept as positively as I could, and no one has felt comfortable with the sound of it.  The mechanic, especially when synthesized with mine, congeals for them, but the sound does not resonate.  I have an issue with how some of the rules for RM sound at times in other areas.  If we could find a way to make our synthesis sound better to the ear, I would be more inclined to accept it. 

Now for the larger issue: We seem to be attempting to explain something that maybe should stay unexplainable.  Magic should be unpredictable, mysterious and personal.  It should be an art and not a science.  Each spell should contain the timbre of the mage casting the spell.  It ought to be more akin to how a musician interprets a piece or the experience and insight that an actor brings to a role more than cold, impersonal science.  Mages may talk about over arching concepts and theories as the science of sound and logic govern music, but its application must remain personal.     

Well, I have a performance to get to by noon (less that two hours!).

[Marc R]

I definitely agree that flavor is important. Problem lies in the fact that actual mechanical explainations are campaign world specific. I'll delve my end a bit.

Core rules:

A personal Aura, or energy field associated with the body is the caster's magical tool. This is laid out both in the fact that items in contact with your body (personal gear) makes RRs at your RR, not their individual material RR. (Unless their individual material RR exceeds your personal RR.) SPELL LAW. It's also played out by the rules on intelligent item casting, the item uses your aura "Like a radio uses a transmission antenna" to cast spells, so the spells it casts count toward your 1/round casting limit. (Items capable of casting using their own aura are considered construct creatures.) SPELL LAW and CREATURES & TREASURES.

Non arcane essence has a flavor. This is laid out in the Channeling skill (SL and CL) and in how multipliers/adders work. (SL and CT)

I view the variations in how the three realms work, and how they are affected by armor/gear to be explained by both flavor, and aura use.

Opinion:

In terms of my in game mechanics, this is the nitty gritty explaination of the above. This has no bearing on other people's games, as it's a campaign specific explaination:

The aura has focal points. This personal variant is rooted in the concepts of Chakras and Kirlian auras. These points are distributed around the body and interconnected in a pattern similar to the distribution of neural paths and clusters.

The focal points of the aura are also the actual anchoring points of the soul to the body.

Channelers use all focal points as a "lens" for casting, full body use, but they are actually using their soul to activate their focal points, so they have an "otherworldly" push behnd their material efforts. They are hampered by any metal, but not as much, and ignore dead organic matter.

Mentalists only use the focal point in their head as their "lens" for casting spells. This use of only one bit of their aura explains the "head only" limits, and their ability to cast with a higher degree of subtlety. The flavor element is also there in that they are affected by metal and dead organic head cover since all efforts are made in the material realm.

Essence users use all their focal points, whole body, via control of their feel for their body. (A sort of deep mental/emtional self control.). They are affected by gear over their whole body as a result, and affected by both metal and dead organic since their method is totally self powered in the material realm.

But once you delve into enough specifics to create a logical explaination, you've entered specific world details, and that explaination likely won't apply to other campaigns. The generic answers are unsatisfying, mostly because they are generic.