Author Topic: No to complain about DnD, but...  (Read 902 times)

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Offline Thot

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No to complain about DnD, but...
« on: September 03, 2023, 11:47:27 AM »
... honestly, as great a piece of art Baldur's Gate 3 is, the rules system of DnD that is the basis for that game just doesn't work as well for me as RoleMaster does. Attacks of opportunies, "spell slots", "prepared spells" rather slim development chances for your characters... or by contrast, action points, power points to be flexibly assigned the job at hand, ANYTHING being able to be learned by any character if you want to spend the DP's... there really isn't any area where I would consider DnD to work better for the design goal. And that's before even starting to look at the much superior damage mechanics.

In my humble opinion, RMU is just megameters ahead of DnD5.

Just had to get that out of my system after playing BG3 a lot and being annoyed to pieces by the combat mechanics. :D

Offline MisterK

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Re: No to complain about DnD, but...
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2023, 01:24:07 PM »
Actually, D&D is great for what it wants to recreate : heroic, high fantasy with an attrition-based resource management system. When you've said that, you know where it can shine and where it breaks down.

Discussing the superiority of one magic system over another is like comparing apples and oranges. Just because someone doesn't like Vancian magic does not mean it is an inferior system. As a matter of fact, I tend to prefer build-your-own-spells and spontaneous magic systems rather than predefined spell catalogues, and I also tend to think that RM magic is not really suited to Shadow World, which is a shame since Shadow World is kind of the unofficial default setting of the game.

Honestly, D&D is not my favourite game system by a long shot. But it works when you play in a genre that plays to its strengths (I don't, which is why I seldom use it). I also tend to think that RM is exactly the same, and my position regarding RM is the same as well - which is why I modify the system almost to death, changing the character development rules, the skill list and action resolution system, the combat system, most of the resource management, and will probably end up with something that only keeps the idea of open-ended rolls from the original RM.

In the end, I tend to find RM outdated, bloated with too many subsystems and exceptions, vainly chasing an illusion of 'realism', and unwilling to streamline the core task resolution mechanisms. Honestly, were it not for my nearly 35-year investment into Shadow World, I would not even be here.

But I can acknowledge that it does the job for the people who use it. Same as D&D. And as long as people are enjoying playing a game, I am wise enough to acknowledge that it has fulfilled its purpose: being an entertainment medium.

Offline Thot

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Re: No to complain about DnD, but...
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2023, 02:51:53 PM »
Actually, D&D is great for what it wants to recreate : [...]

We'll have to agree to disagree there.

Offline pastaav

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Re: No to complain about DnD, but...
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2023, 05:08:22 PM »
One obvious strong point of D&D is that you can get started to play really quick. It is realistic to roll up alternate characters on the fly and level them up to the desired level if the DM is sick and just to start playing. The same cannot be said about RM that is loads of fun, but creating a character takes quite an effort.

MisterK's point on D&D being an attrition-base resource management game is very spot on. Balancing your resources in D&D so you can beat the set of encounters can be loads of fun...but the major problem with D&D IMO is that every single encounter must be fine-tuned to exactly match power of the party. If you gain an extra level on some side quest and every bloody encounter in the D&D main story must be adjusted unless the players shall storm through the enemies. Miss an level on the path to the boss and the risk for a total party kill suddenly became huge.

When I GM Rolemaster I feel I need to pay attention to the number of enemies, but I seldom worry about if the enemy levels compared to the players. There are many monsters/enemies that low level characters should not be fighting, but players have good chances to escape from tough encounter if the act rational.

On the flip side large groups of low level enemies have strong impact in RM and can be used to shape the narrative while they in D&D exist only as cannon fodder so the boss can play the attrition-based dance with the players better. Running a improvised game in RM is quite possible while D&D takes carefully planned encounters so you either follow a premade adventure or are playing in a sandbox style of game when you cannot improvise too much.
/Pa Staav

Online Hurin

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Re: No to complain about DnD, but...
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2023, 10:03:50 AM »
I think the thing that bugged me the most in playing BG3 is going back to spell slots and Vancian magic. Ugh. After Rolemaster, that's just needless complexity.

I also agree that character options are limited and agree with Thot that there isn't an area of DnD that I would say is better than RM, other than the level of support for the game in things like adventures and videogames.

It is even worse when I try to GM DnD. As a GM, you have to wear down the party with multiple encounters of attrition before you can begin to challenge them, especially at the higher levels (here I agree with PaStaav too). It becomes a game of 'DM may I short rest here?', and that's a drag.

It will never happen of course, but I would love to see a Rolemaster mod for BG3!

Despite all that, BG3 has been a ton of fun and I am loving playing it.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Thot

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Re: No to complain about DnD, but...
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2023, 10:28:36 AM »
Oh, yes, BG3 is a lot of fun. It could be a lot more, though, with a less goofy rules system.

RMU, having received the streamlining that MisterK hasn't noticed, is just plain superior for this kind of "give me a bit of structure for my fantasy game by using levels and classes" type of play.

I have played other stuff, like GURPS, various versions of BRP, Traveller, more indie games with revolutionary mechanics than I could recall… (even made my own), but right now, RoleMaster Unified is just the best thing for me. All the good things about RM with all the bad things removed.

I just hope the other core books come out soon. ;)

Offline MisterK

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Re: No to complain about DnD, but...
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2023, 10:40:02 AM »
It is even worse when I try to GM DnD. As a GM, you have to wear down the party with multiple encounters of attrition before you can begin to challenge them, especially at the higher levels (here I agree with PaStaav too). It becomes a game of 'DM may I short rest here?', and that's a drag.
Ah, no, you don't need that to challenge your players. But you need to take into account the pace of encounters. The default D&D hypotheses are 1) characters spend most of their resources between two long rests, and 2) characters do not try to avoid encounters. And the idea was to have attrition because it is much more comfortable for players to manage their resources if they have perspective (and thus can take a long test :p).

Now remove the idea of attrition most of the time (just not *all* of the time). Have each encounter require most of their resources, or at least, most of their critical resources. And give them time to prepare if they are careful and inventive, and if they use their *other* resources (those that are not needed in combat, and that include money, contacts, and brains) appropriately. A good D&D encounter is one where you feel you manage your resources *during* the encounter and have to determine your main goal carefully and circumvent most of the unnecessary attrition, because attrition will play against you. It's even better if the players can force their opponents to spend resources while they themselves do not.

The best D&D campaigns are those where you don't fight often, but where you have to manage your resources each time you do. That's why I find it better than RM for heroic high-fantasy: in RM, any resource management can be voided by the whims of a single die roll. In D&D, less so. Players can see the tides turning for or against them. In RM, it is possible as well, but it is also possible to be felled by a single blow from a lesser opponent. Some people do like that, others do not (I count myself in the third category: those who think that combat should not be a challenge all by itself, but should only be a side show - combats are not meant to be really challenging, but I want the characters to understand why they willingly enter a fight and what they expect to get out of it).

Now I also happen to think that D&D is not good for character customisation. It relies far too much on stereotypes, and uses myriad of more or less balanced subclasses to provide variability, and D&D4 and 5 were actually a step backwards compared to D&D3 in that regard. RM is better only by virtue of going halfway between pure class-based and pure skill-based, but then gets mired down in the same illusion of detail as other games (everyone thinks their particular situation is a special case that would be best resolved by having a separate skill). There is no hard look at what the game really is about, what is considered essential (and, as such, requires differentiation) and what is merely character fluff.

One thing I got from BESM and I thought was a very good idea was that skill price varied not according to 'classes', but according to genre: the skills that were most central to the genre you wanted to play were the most expensive ones. Peripheral skills cost less to develop. This is the kind of game design thinking I would have liked RM to take for a 21st century reboot (along with having all rules condensed into 100 pages or less, tables included, because let's face it, rules do not need to take more than that): have the game designers think clearly about the kind of games RM was about, optimise the rules for that kind of games, trim all the fat from previous editions, standardise the core mechanisms, and be very explicit about it.

Online Hurin

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Re: No to complain about DnD, but...
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2023, 04:19:06 PM »
This is the kind of game design thinking I would have liked RM to take for a 21st century reboot (along with having all rules condensed into 100 pages or less, tables included, because let's face it, rules do not need to take more than that)...

You'd really prefer a version of Rolemaster that is less than 100 pages total for all rules?

I hope you find the game you like, but I also hope that Rolemaster is never like that.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Spectre771

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Re: No to complain about DnD, but...
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2023, 07:46:50 PM »
I am no fan of D&D, but I play it because my gaming group loves it and I love the times I have with them.  The game is just a common means for us to have a great night.  What I noticed early on and what has helped me come to enjoy D&D now is keeping in mind that it was a "table top game."  It was meant as a board game without the board and with infinite possibilities*.  There are several D&D box games and I own 2 of them plus the electronic one from the 80's (Yes, it still works and I still have all the pieces.)  Those box games play pretty mush the same as gaming with my friends.

RM, in all of incarnations was meant to be (and is advertised at times) as a "role playing simulator."  It truly is comparing Apples to Windows.  When I play D&D, I just approach it as a table top game as it is simply not as in depth RM because it was never designed to be that.  D&D went for quick, easy to jump into, get into the action and it succeeded.  RM went the way of nitty gritty, granular, in depth, detailed and it succeeded.  Hands down, I'll play RM any day.  I'll only play D&D when I'm with my buddies.  I have the D&D video games for my computer (several of those too) and I've never played one all the way through because I lose interest in it too quickly.  But that's just me.  But porting a role playing game into digital format cannot be an easy task with so many variables. D&D works and can e adapted (obviously) with success.  I could never see a RM in console or laptop form.  There's just so much more to it.

D&D character creation is bland.  When there is a table of 7 players with brand new PCs and the GM says "Tell me where you put the 11 in your stats" or he says "What class are you? 18 in Str and 9 i Wis?"  And he is dead on for all 7 players?   That's cookie cutter character creation.  Right off the bat, you're not even near the detail and depth of RM.



* - "infinite" only if a couple of the players I game with would allow the game to be.  They are 'canon-lawyers' and don't allow ANYTHING to happen in the game that is not exactly written in the module we are playing.  This is the single reason I never want to see RM go the way of a module based system, but that's my own nightmarish Hell I deal with on occasion.  I love the Shadow World Companions from RM2 as you can pick and choose what you want, and sprinkle them into your game setting.
If discretion is the better valor and
cowardice the better part of judgment,
let's all be heroes and run away!

Offline Thot

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Re: No to complain about DnD, but...
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2023, 11:05:17 PM »
[...]
You'd really prefer a version of Rolemaster that is less than 100 pages total for all rules?
[...]

If you exclude the tables, the fluff, and the examples, it actually doesn't need that many pages.

Offline Wolfwood

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Re: No to complain about DnD, but...
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2023, 03:19:15 AM »
I have to agree. My only reservations about BG3 are connected to the RPG system, such as the silliness of having a long rest heal the party from almost any ailment, mages having to pick specific spells that they will resort to (and their limited slots for them)... It is too much about battle tactics and reminds me of boardgames and card games, rather than roleplaying.

Online Hurin

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Re: No to complain about DnD, but...
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2023, 09:51:00 AM »
[...]
You'd really prefer a version of Rolemaster that is less than 100 pages total for all rules?
[...]

If you exclude the tables, the fluff, and the examples, it actually doesn't need that many pages.

He was including all the attack tables and critical charts in that count.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline MisterK

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Re: No to complain about DnD, but...
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2023, 10:20:37 AM »
[...]
You'd really prefer a version of Rolemaster that is less than 100 pages total for all rules?
[...]

If you exclude the tables, the fluff, and the examples, it actually doesn't need that many pages.

He was including all the attack tables and critical charts in that count.
Yes.
Actually, I was including everything that was needed. I never said that attack tables and critical charts were needed to have a good roleplaying experience.

Offline Thot

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Re: No to complain about DnD, but...
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2023, 03:46:12 PM »
[...]

He was including all the attack tables and critical charts in that count.

Fair point, but the actual rules aren't actually that numerous, is what I wanted to point out.