Topic: Any DB for fast moving target? RMU

[Hansuke]

Is there something like that in core book? i didn't see it.

I'm firing (crossbow) at target riding a horse  in full gallop across the battlefield. Does target get DB because of speed?

[Hurin]

Not in core as far as I know.

One easy way to implement it would be to make a modifier based on pace (or action points spent if using just the 'pay action points to move' system exclusively).

E.g. Something such as:

+10 DB per pace increment (or action point spent on movement)

Note that RMU also has a specific dodging action, separate from this, that somewhat mimics movement.

[Hansuke]

Thanks, that does sound like an easy fix based on pace. I thought I missed something in my core book reading last night. Sometimes I skim too fast.

[Hurin]

No, you didn't miss anything. There was some discussion during beta about doing something like this, but in the end none of that made it into core (I don't think previous editions did it either?).

Note too that Dodging works a little bit differently in the Core than it did in some versions of the beta too.

[jdale]

The general feeling was that fast predictable movement does not offer much defense, and unpredictable movement is handled by dodging.

[MisterK]

The general feeling was that fast predictable movement does not offer much defense, and unpredictable movement is handled by dodging.

To be honest, that was my feeling as well.

But when you're on the ground and trying to hit something moving, you have to predict where it will be in the near future, and it's not as easy as it seems. And actually, I think that the further away the target is, the more difficult it is, and bows, crossbows and slings are not lasers - the projectile does not reach its target "instantly".

Or, to put it more plainly : at a given range, it's more difficult to hit a moving target than a stationary one, even if the target is not actively dodging. And the more it moves, the more difficult it gets.

So, despite my initial feeling that this should be handled by dodging, I would actually give a DB bonus for speed (given that range is already taken into account in modifiers), *on top of* any avoidance you can have from activity besides simply moving. The only exception would be if the target moves towards (or directly away from) the shooter, because in that case, you don't have to predict anything, just shoot straight - if the target avoids the projectile, it is because of dodging, not because you miscalculated the point of impact along the target trajectory.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

(I don't think previous editions did it either?).

Actually, RM2 has the "flee/evade" bonus, that indeed depends on the speed rate of a given creature.

The general feeling was that fast predictable movement does not offer much defense…

Which, of course, is wrong, as any hunter (or sniper) knows. It takes time for a projectile to hit a target, during which said target will have moved, so one has to calculate where it would be when the projectile hits him, which depends on its speed, travel path, the wind and the Coriolis force, among other factors. Since it takes time to factor all of these, it means the faster a target moves, the less time one has to calculate all of these, thus the likelier one is to make an error… and miss.

[Hurin]

If giving bonuses for a character's movement speed, I would probably tone down the bonuses for Dodging.

Note that in the current rules, Dodging applies only at half value against ranged attacks; these ranged attacks are pre-gunpowder. I might say that against gunpowder/laser weapons, Dodging is ineffective and you have to instead just take the DB bonus for movement.

[pastaav]

I would say that the range modifier represent the difficulty of target moving between shot of arrow and hit by arrow combined with the effect of wind etc.

The special case of a target standing totally should probably be more easy than a standard moving target, but those situations are much better handled by giving that special case a bonus. Stacking negative penalties for moving targets on a distance will not make the game more fun.

[MisterK]

I would say that the range modifier represent the difficulty of target moving between shot of arrow and hit by arrow combined with the effect of wind etc.

If it is the case, there are a number of parameters left out (such as wind speed, as you point out, but also target speed).

Once again, hitting a target at long range is more difficult than hitting one at close range, even if the target is stationary. Does it account for the whole modifier ? I don't know. But I can't say that the range modifier includes a pace modifier if the range modifier value is independent of the pace value.

So maybe the range modifier includes an "average" pace modifier ? It would be common sense, but good luck finding out (and then you will still have to determine the effect of "non-average" pace on the range modifier, circling back to the initial issue.

But I'm OK with saying that the range modifier includes an average pace modifiers (if only we can determine what the "average pace" is).

[jdale]

You can always assess difficulty modifiers for attacks if there are special circumstances (e.g. high winds). Just remember the default difficulty of medium (+0) does not assume everything is as easy as possible. It's just a normal circumstance with a moving target in combat.