Author Topic: Lets build a Tarrasque!  (Read 861 times)

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Offline Dreven1

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Lets build a Tarrasque!
« on: May 10, 2023, 05:12:04 PM »
Hi all,
I would like to get input on building the infamous Tarrasque from (the game that shall not be named)!!!
This challenge would need to be as balanced as possible (according to other monsters in the same category) yet very strict in the conversion, and as deadly!
What would be YOUR interpretation of the RMSS Creatures and Monsters equivalent be for this creature, including special abilities?

Here was my reference point:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/17034-tarrasque

I am interested in all variations and suggestions!
Kind Regards
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Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Lets build a Tarrasque!
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2023, 08:34:26 PM »
RMSS already has Leviathan. Start there. Ask yourself what features of the Terrasque that you're desiring aren't present in the Leviathan. Add those to the Leviathan. Done.
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Offline Dreven1

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Re: Lets build a Tarrasque!
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2023, 09:40:50 PM »
RMSS already has Leviathan. Start there. Ask yourself what features of the Terrasque that you're desiring aren't present in the Leviathan. Add those to the Leviathan. Done.
Good idea, here is what I currently have...
Tarrasque
Level: 100
Base Rate: 200 Spt/0
MS: MD
AQ:FA
Size: H
Crit: SL@
Hits: 3000H
AT: 20
DB: 60
OB: 350HBi
OB2: 300HCl X 2
OB3: 400HBa
OB4: 350HHo
Encounter: 1
Treasure Type: zzzz
Bonus Exp: Lx3
Outlook: Mean as hell
IQ: Low

Legendary Resistance (3/Day). If the Tarrasque fails a (Resistance Roll) RR, it can choose to succeed instead.

Magic Resistance. The Tarrasque has a 50% chance to ignore spells and other magical effects outright.

Reflective Carapace: Any time the Tarrasque is targeted by a bolt spell, a line spell, or a spell that requires a ranged attack roll.
Roll a d6:
•   On a 1 to 5, the Tarrasque is unaffected
•   On a 6, the Tarrasque is unaffected, and the effect is reflected back at the caster as though it originated from the Tarrasque, turning the caster into the target

Siege Monster. The Tarrasque deals 5x damage to objects and structures.

Actions
Multiattack. The Tarrasque can use its Frightful Presence. It then makes five attacks: one with its bite, two with its claws, one with its horns, and one with its tail. It can use its Swallow instead of its bite.

Huge Bite: Reach 10 ft., one target. If the target is a creature and any critical is obtained, it is grappled.
An escape attempt can be made the following round. It is an Extremely Hard Contortions, Wrestling or AG/AG/ST maneuver.
Until this grapple ends, the target is restrained (-100 to all actions), and the Tarrasque can't bite another target.
Claw: Reach 15 ft., one target.
Horns: Reach 10 ft., one target.
Tail: Reach 20 ft., one target. If the target is a creature and any critical is obtained the target must make an Extremely Hard dodge maneuver (either using Contortions, Ag/Ag/Qu, Tumbling, Acrobatics – whichever is greater) or be knocked prone.
Frightful Presence: Each creature of the Tarrasque's choice within 120 feet of it and aware of it must make an RR (Resistance Roll) vs Fear or become frightened for 1 minute. A creature can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, with a -20 if the Tarrasque is within line of sight, ending the effect on itself on a success. If a creature's RR is successful or the effect ends for it, the creature is immune to the Tarrasque's Frightful Presence for the next 24 hours.
Swallow: The Tarrasque makes one bite attack against a Large or smaller creature it is grappling. If the attack results in a critical, the target takes the bite's damage, the target is swallowed, and the grapple ends. While swallowed, the creature is blinded and restrained (-50 to all physical actions, -100 to all perceptions), it has total cover against attacks and other effects outside the Tarrasque, and it takes an “E” acid critical at the start of the Tarrasque's turns. If the Tarrasque takes 100 damage or more on a single turn from a creature inside it, the Tarrasque must succeed on a RR vs. Constitution at the end of that turn or regurgitate all swallowed creatures, which fall prone in a space within 10 feet of the Tarrasque. If the Tarrasque dies, a swallowed creature is no longer restrained by it and can escape from the corpse by using 30 feet of movement, exiting prone.

Legendary actions
The Tarrasque can take 3 legendary actions, choosing from the options below. Only one legendary action option can be used at a time and only at the end of another creature's turn. The Tarrasque regains spent legendary actions at the start of its turn.

Attack. The Tarrasque makes one claw attack or tail attack.
Move. The Tarrasque moves up to half its speed.
Chomp (Costs 2 Actions). The Tarrasque makes one bite attack or uses its Swallow.
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: Lets build a Tarrasque!
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2023, 08:53:20 AM »
Note: my changes here are to adapt the abilities of the creature to the RM rules, not to make new/special rules. Also, remember that in RM it is more about the attack/skill/RR/maneuver/etc. roll than having a special abiiity that will negate the roll. (Such as Magic Resistance and Legendary Resistance.)
Tarrasque
Level: 100
Base Rate: 200 Spt/0
MS: MD
AQ:FA
Size: H
Crit: SL@
Hits: 3000H
AT: 20
DB: 60
OB: 350HBi
OB2: 300HCl X 2
OB3: 400HBa
OB4: 350HHo
Encounter: 1
Treasure Type: zzzz
Bonus Exp: Lx3
Outlook: Mean as hell
IQ: Low
The only things I would change here are the Speed (it should only be a little faster than your normal humanoid, so say around 70-80) and the base DB and OBs. But these last two are personal preferences of mine when it comes to big-bads like the Tarrasque (or other huge monsters). The DB should be high to reflect the fact that most hits just bounce of their hide (i.e., "hit" but do no damage), and the OBs should be lower to reflect that big things hitting little things (like humans, elves, dwarves, etc.) is actually hard - BUT, when they do hit, it is really gonna suck with a 4x or 5x Concussion Hits and additional criticals (see below). Thinking about it, I don't think it needs 3000 Hits either, 1000-1200 would be more than enough. The biggest god created for Shadow World, a 210th level Fighter/Cleric has merely 960 Hits.

Legendary Resistance (3/Day). If the Tarrasque fails a (Resistance Roll) RR, it can choose to succeed instead.

Magic Resistance. The Tarrasque has a 50% chance to ignore spells and other magical effects outright.
As I mentioned above, I don't think special rules are the way to go here.  I think these are better reflected with the Tarrasque having high RR bonuses than some special (and unique) capabilities. At 100th level it is already nigh-impossible to affect with, well just about anything that requires an RR. Example: the Tarrasque needs, what a -70 on an RR to resist the spells of a 20th level caster? (Not including any other modifiers, strictly level vs level.) Meaning they can fumble and still succeed.

Reflective Carapace: Any time the Tarrasque is targeted by a bolt spell, a line spell, or a spell that requires a ranged attack roll.
Roll a d6:
•   On a 1 to 5, the Tarrasque is unaffected
•   On a 6, the Tarrasque is unaffected, and the effect is reflected back at the caster as though it originated from the Tarrasque, turning the caster into the target
Unfortunately, this will have to be a special rule of some kind, but I would have it tied to the RR roll (so as to not make a separate roll and slow down the game). Much like how Weapon Breakage works if the spell caster rolls a double (11, 22, 33, 44, etc... but any double, in this case) on the d100 roll Resistance Roll, then the spell is reflected back at the caster exactly how it was at the Tarrasque, only it is now going against the caster's DB. This does make it less likely - 1-in-10 as opposed to 1-in-6 - but it is quite a powerful defense, so I feel this is OK. You can use the original roll or do a separate roll for the reflected attack.

Siege Monster. The Tarrasque deals 5x damage to objects and structures.
Having it always do a multiple of Concussion Hits damage, sort of takes care of this already. Now, you might be able to delve into the rules presented in #5542 RMSS - Castles and Ruins to grant them some specific effects regarding structures, but I don't know how that would work out off the top of my head.

Actions
Multiattack. The Tarrasque can use its Frightful Presence. It then makes five attacks: one with its bite, two with its claws, one with its horns, and one with its tail. It can use its Swallow instead of its bite.

Huge Bite: Reach 10 ft., one target. If the target is a creature and any critical is obtained, it is grappled.
An escape attempt can be made the following round. It is an Extremely Hard Contortions, Wrestling or AG/AG/ST maneuver.
Until this grapple ends, the target is restrained (-100 to all actions), and the Tarrasque can't bite another target.
Claw: Reach 15 ft., one target.
Horns: Reach 10 ft., one target.
Tail: Reach 20 ft., one target. If the target is a creature and any critical is obtained the target must make an Extremely Hard dodge maneuver (either using Contortions, Ag/Ag/Qu, Tumbling, Acrobatics – whichever is greater) or be knocked prone.
Frightful Presence: Each creature of the Tarrasque's choice within 120 feet of it and aware of it must make an RR (Resistance Roll) vs Fear or become frightened for 1 minute. A creature can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, with a -20 if the Tarrasque is within line of sight, ending the effect on itself on a success. If a creature's RR is successful or the effect ends for it, the creature is immune to the Tarrasque's Frightful Presence for the next 24 hours.
Swallow: The Tarrasque makes one bite attack against a Large or smaller creature it is grappling. If the attack results in a critical, the target takes the bite's damage, the target is swallowed, and the grapple ends. While swallowed, the creature is blinded and restrained (-50 to all physical actions, -100 to all perceptions), it has total cover against attacks and other effects outside the Tarrasque, and it takes an “E” acid critical at the start of the Tarrasque's turns. If the Tarrasque takes 100 damage or more on a single turn from a creature inside it, the Tarrasque must succeed on a RR vs. Constitution at the end of that turn or regurgitate all swallowed creatures, which fall prone in a space within 10 feet of the Tarrasque. If the Tarrasque dies, a swallowed creature is no longer restrained by it and can escape from the corpse by using 30 feet of movement, exiting prone.
I would not allow the Tarrasque 5 melee attacks. I would do it like so:
Attack                                            % Chance this attack is used       Extra
Huge Claw (2x)                                                    50
Huge Claw + Huge Bite                                         25                             << Huge Swallow (Grapple)
Huge Bite + Huge Tail Attack                                 25                             << Huge Swallow (Grapple) + Unbalancing

These should be more than enough to make the monster hideously dangerous.

For the Garppling effect, just have the Tarrasque do a Grappling Critical in addition to other criticals (perhaps even +1 or +2 severity if the size difference is great, as it is between the creature and just about any humanoid being).
The tail can inflict an additional Unbalancing Critical (with the same possible increase in severity due to the target's size, if you like, as well as having them shoved back 5' per level of critical (i.e., an 'A' = 5', a 'B' = 10', a 'C' = 15', etc.).
For the Frightful Presence I would halve the Tarrasques level as the power level of the fear (i.e., those seeing the beast need to resist against a power level 50 fear, not 100), as otherwise it would be virtually impossible to resist. This should be used if you are going to actually use the Fear/Awe Attack Chart on pg. 163 of Gamemaster Law. It is entirely possible (probable?) that the vast majority of the beings observing the monster will be paralyzed with fear (0% action) this way. If you have the Frightful Presence at the full level of the Tarrasque (100), it is likely that most will have heart attacks and die upon seeing the beast.

Legendary actions
The Tarrasque can take 3 legendary actions, choosing from the options below. Only one legendary action option can be used at a time and only at the end of another creature's turn. The Tarrasque regains spent legendary actions at the start of its turn.

Attack. The Tarrasque makes one claw attack or tail attack.
Move. The Tarrasque moves up to half its speed.
Chomp (Costs 2 Actions). The Tarrasque makes one bite attack or uses its Swallow.
These sorts of things are generally totally unnecessary in RM, a big nasty like the Tarrasque is going to be more than enough without them. If, you feel that it needs some sort of "one-shot" kill defense, give it Fate Points as presented in ICE5809P- Channeling Companion (pg. 43). The suggested amount of 3 is likely enough.
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Offline Dreven1

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Re: Lets build a Tarrasque!
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2023, 12:14:12 PM »
Great input RandalThor!
I agree with much of what you posted, however I disagree on some of the special rules.  With some in my group (the power gamers) they use (abuse?) Talent and Flaws so absurdly that a group of their "Level 10's" can easily take a level 60 Ancient Dragon (one high roll on a base attack usually does it).
From what I understand, the Tarrasque is one of the baddest "baddies" in D&D, so I wanted to make it as equally as unstoppable as possible.
Even the gods of Shadow World, are no match for some of my players PC's once they get to around 15th (as long as it actually has playable stats and not just cop-outs like "infinite" hits).
I'll massage this a bit more and I do appreciate your input!
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Offline katastrophe

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Re: Lets build a Tarrasque!
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2023, 09:19:05 PM »
What is exactly supposed to encounter and do anything to this creature. Surely there’s no expectation that any player group would have the slightest chance in an encounter. Even the likes of Lorgalis and Sulthon would not be able to harm it in any negligible way.

Offline Dreven1

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Re: Lets build a Tarrasque!
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2023, 10:55:31 PM »
Even the likes of Lorgalis and Sulthon would not be able to harm it in any negligible way.

You don't use "Talent Law" do you? ;)
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Lets build a Tarrasque!
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2023, 11:24:26 PM »
Didn't you need a wish spell to kill one in D&D?
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Game design priority: Fun > Balance > Realism (greater than > less than).
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: Lets build a Tarrasque!
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2023, 07:33:58 AM »
Great input RandalThor!
I agree with much of what you posted, however I disagree on some of the special rules.  With some in my group (the power gamers) they use (abuse?) Talent and Flaws so absurdly that a group of their "Level 10's" can easily take a level 60 Ancient Dragon (one high roll on a base attack usually does it).
From what I understand, the Tarrasque is one of the baddest "baddies" in D&D, so I wanted to make it as equally as unstoppable as possible.
Even the gods of Shadow World, are no match for some of my players PC's once they get to around 15th (as long as it actually has playable stats and not just cop-outs like "infinite" hits).
I'll massage this a bit more and I do appreciate your input!
I love Talent Law!!! Love it! And have made some really awesome characters with it - but none that would come close to being able to take on that Tarrasque. Certainly not by 10th level. You really do have some power gamers in your group. All the groups I have played with (barring one) have done whatever they can to keep the PCs low level and low power. I am not sure why so many who play RM are so afraid of PCs having some actual capabilities, but it aggravates me! As you mention, all it takes is a single good (generally GREAT) roll in order for a 1st level commoner to kill a 20th level Fighter. It is - and should be - rare, but still possible. So what if the character has an OB of 120 at 5th level?!? They can still die in a single hit.

But, I was building for a more typical group; had no idea about your group's superhero PCs.  ;D

I still say you should use the Fate Points instead of Legendary Resistance, but with your group maybe it should have 10...or more?

PS: I would love it if you posted some of your PC's character sheet.
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Scratch that. Power attracts the corruptible.

Rules should not replace the brain and thinking.

Offline Dreven1

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Re: Lets build a Tarrasque!
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2023, 09:04:20 PM »
PS: I would love it if you posted some of your PC's character sheet.

I will, I think I can link a few jpg's to this chat.  Give me a few to dig up this monstrosity that I ended one of my campaigns over (everyone was pissed that she could do everything they could do but better). 

Also, just so you know, it's not that I am afraid of letting Players have power, quite the opposite, I love it WHEN it is the appropriate time/level.  Starting off at level 10 power in a level 1 game SUX for those players who dont know how to max their characters, especially stacking talents.  Also, players get to the end-game stuff WAY to quickly if you do that.
Many, before I made my new rules, would choose color blind, no smell, only one of their race, etc. etc. etc. for flaws and then BBAWG, Precision, Dense, 4x height and weight, Fly, Regen 4, etc, etc, etc.
The guy who just chose weapon specialist would get walked over of a mob ever turned from the min-maxed player on them.  Anyway, I'm all about balance and dont like when some player comes to the table with something so out of balance that it hurts the group (and the inverse if someone only has 15 hp at level 1, I'll bring them up to what they should be).

let me find this mess...one sec.
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Offline Dreven1

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Re: Lets build a Tarrasque!
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2023, 10:05:07 PM »
No sheets, I posted (private messaged) you directly because this is a little off topic.
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Offline pastaav

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Re: Lets build a Tarrasque!
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2023, 01:15:03 AM »
I don't think monster conversion between systems like this work at all. Tarrasque might be the big bad with a challenge rating of monstrous 30, and the Leviathan is exceptionally strong in RM...on the other hand, an ancient red dragon has a challenge rating of 24. The distance between Leviathan and the most powerful dragons in RM is a lot more than that.

In general, I would say dragons, in general, are much more dangerous in RM with the criticals and how the dragon can use magic, but how combat works in the game matters a lot. Dragons are not the worst things you encounter in RM. There are many monsters with special powers that give danger to the players in ways that are not a concern in games with less detailed combat than RM. If building the Tarrasque, I would start with the strongest ordinary dragon and give it extra powers. Using the Leviathan as a baseline is giving the other game systems far too much credit. The game balance breaks down far before you are getting near anything similar to tough RM encounters and Leviathan is IMHO on a different scale than anything that can exist in the other game.
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Offline Dreven1

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Re: Lets build a Tarrasque!
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2023, 09:44:19 PM »
Thank you Pastaav, I appreciate the input, however I was looking for suggestions on how it might possibly be converted.
I know it is difficult, thus the reason for my question, because the game systems are very different. 

Having said that, this is a fantasy game and I refuse to believe "it cannot be done". :)
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Offline pastaav

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Re: Lets build a Tarrasque!
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2023, 02:10:29 PM »
Thank you Pastaav, I appreciate the input, however I was looking for suggestions on how it might possibly be converted.
I know it is difficult, thus the reason for my question, because the game systems are very different. 

Having said that, this is a fantasy game and I refuse to believe "it cannot be done". :)

I think you missed my main point. I argue the Tarrasque is very possible to convert to RM, but that Leviathan translated into the other game does not work because it's power is far beyond the challenge rating scale.

Basically the CR tells what is a reasonable encounter for 4 characters of the same level. The Tarraque is in the range 20 to 30 depending on the edition used. I would argue the CR system balance breaks down far before CR 30, but as thought exercise we can imagine how much success 4 level characters would have againt the Leviathan. Unless you let the players create demi gods we are not speaking about a reasonable fight.
/Pa Staav

Offline Dreven1

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Re: Lets build a Tarrasque!
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2023, 10:07:05 AM »
Ah! thank you for clarifying, I understand now.  Yes, I dont know what the challenge rating of a Leviathan would be!  That would also make an interesting build going the other direction :)
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