Author Topic: RMU spell: Change profession  (Read 8106 times)

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Offline Thot

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Re: RMU spell: Change profession
« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2023, 12:30:48 AM »
Regarding realms of power, by the way, I would probably just state that you can only cast spells in your own realm(s) of power, which means switching from a Magician to a Cleric might be possible, but would result in loosing access to all the Essence lists one has learned. Which I suspect few people will want to do. In fact, a spell that changes a character's realm of power might be used rather as a curse.

Offline Cory Magel

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Re: RMU spell: Change profession
« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2023, 12:32:23 AM »
But you have access to all other professions' base lists anyway, albeit at higher cost?
This is exactly why changing profession is unbalanced. You gain the cheaper skill costs of another profession.
Everyone can buy everything unless disallowed by the GM. Thus there is no reason to switch professions unless you're just looking to get cheaper skill costs.
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Offline Thot

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Re: RMU spell: Change profession
« Reply #22 on: May 05, 2023, 01:08:06 AM »
[...]
This is exactly why changing profession is unbalanced. You gain the cheaper skill costs of another profession.

And loose the cheaper skill costs of your own profession, which will stop you from advancing further in a field where you're probably better at anyway (because stats).

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Everyone can buy everything unless disallowed by the GM. Thus there is no reason to switch professions unless you're just looking to get cheaper skill costs.

If we were talking about simply allowing people to switch, this would hold true (because childhood and adolescence imprinting isn't easily changed, at least in humans), but we're looking at a mentalism caster who changes a person's mind with magic. Which is what they do, so it seems logical for some to try this.

So far, arguments for extremely high levels for such spells seem to stem from a purely game balance point of view. I do not agree that there is even an issue there, but within a game world, magical researches wouldn't concern themselves with game balance. So why should it be harder to change a person's learning pattern than to, for instance, teleport several hundred meters?


Offline cdcooley

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Re: RMU spell: Change profession
« Reply #23 on: May 05, 2023, 01:33:53 AM »
What would he do with the remaining 35 points per level? Is he really saving that much if you take that into account? And will he really be that better off than someone who started out as a hybrid between the two professions (such as not a Fighter/Cleric, but a Paladin)? Generally, it is better to have higher skill than to have more skills if you want to break game balance.

Who is more powerful, a Magician who knows his base lists to level 20, or a Magician/Cleric who knows both professions' base lists to level 10?
I would say that the versatility of having multiple lists known to lower levels (and also requiring fewer power points to use) is better for the magic using professions.

I find it fascinating that you cite ChatGPT as a reliable source and give it preference over experienced GMs and some of the actual RMU developers themselves.

Differing development costs are an absolute core mechanic in RM from all versions. Interestingly the authors of Rolemaster Companion II provided many different views of how the idea of changing (or adding) professions could work. But it's well recognized that the Companions were a giant source of imbalance for RM2. As has been said before, Rolemaster is rather unique in the fact that it already lets characters learn almost anything no matter which profession they follow. But there are things that aren't allowed, mainly centered around magic.

Hybrid spell users are given significant penalties compared to pure spell users to balance out the benefits of having access to more spell lists. Semi spell users are also given significant penalties compared to both spell users and non-spell users for as payment for their versatility. Arms users effectively have almost no access to magic through high costs and then only to lists of one realm. When you talk about switching between spell realms and/or switching between arms and spell professions, you're bypassing those penalties.

I'm sympathetic to the idea of a spell that changes someone's way of thinking, but done right, I would say the idea is definitely more of a curse than a blessing. You're altering the person's fundamental though processes.

Radically changing a way of thinking (represented by professions) should definitely have significant side-effects. Not allowing Intense Training at all would be just one. If you allow changing spell Realm, the previous realm's spells should be either unavailable or severely restricted in some way. Gaining full access to multiple sets of base spell lists is definitely unbalanced.

A cleric who becomes a magician would very likely be rejected by the patron deity and so lose access to at least the base cleric spell lists and also have severe problems casting any Channeling magic if the current realm is Essence. If the realm of magic doesn't change, then learning essence magic should be impossible or at least extremely difficult.

A Fighter who now thinks like a Sorcerer should find engaging in the traditional fighting skills more unnatural (so lose all profession bonuses and knacks) but at the same time the character doesn't have a childhood and adolescence of experience with magic, so I wouldn't give any profession bonuses or knacks for the new profession either. Similarly the Sorcerer who now thinks like a Thief is going to find using magic more difficult than before but won't have the long experience with stealth, mechanical, and combat skills which is part of what is represented by the professional skills. If I were feeling particularly generous I might allow acquiring new profession bonuses or knacks, but not both.

So if viewed as a curse to be used on someone else, making it level 10-20 might be OK depending on the negative consequences. But if intended to be beneficial and there are no negative consequences to balance the benefits, then I would definitely put it at the 50th level or even better reserved as something you could only accomplish with an obscure ritual.


Offline Thot

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Re: RMU spell: Change profession
« Reply #24 on: May 05, 2023, 01:43:32 AM »
[...]
I would say that the versatility of having multiple lists known to lower levels (and also requiring fewer power points to use) is better for the magic using professions.

Why do you believe that, say, knowing the 6th level Cleric base list spell Resurrection and the 6th level Druid base spell Underwater Breathing is better than knowing the 11th level Cleric base list spell Lifekeeping II?

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I find it fascinating that you cite ChatGPT as a reliable source and give it preference over experienced GMs and some of the actual RMU developers themselves.

I don't. I was just trying to tie in here that ChatGPT apparently knows RoleMaster. :D

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[...]
I'm sympathetic to the idea of a spell that changes someone's way of thinking, but done right, I would say the idea is definitely more of a curse than a blessing. You're altering the person's fundamental though processes.
[...]
Radically changing a way of thinking (represented by professions) should definitely have significant side-effects.
[...]
So if viewed as a curse to be used on someone else, making it level 10-20 might be OK depending on the negative consequences. But if intended to be beneficial and there are no negative consequences to balance the benefits, then I would definitely put it at the 50th level or even better reserved as something you could only accomplish with an obscure ritual.

Hm. A spell's intention should not influence the spell's level, in my opinion.

Offline cdcooley

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Re: RMU spell: Change profession
« Reply #25 on: May 05, 2023, 03:27:46 AM »
Yes, the higher level spells are good too, but Lifekeeping II is really just a longer lasting Lifekeeping I. Humans rule the planet not because we are the fastest, strongest, or even the most clever. It's because we are adaptable.

I'm not really arguing that intention matters, it's that middle part you quoted that is the core of my thoughts on this. A change that radical should have significant side-effects and many of those would be negative. That certainly seems more like a curse to me and could reasonably be a lower-level spell. If you can completely change someone's way of thinking without producing any negative side effects, that's some very powerful magic. In fact if you were to create that sort of spell, I could see two versions on the spell list. A lower level version with negative side effects and then a higher level one that eliminates them.

Offline Thot

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Re: RMU spell: Change profession
« Reply #26 on: May 05, 2023, 03:44:43 AM »
Yes, the higher level spells are good too, but Lifekeeping II is really just a longer lasting Lifekeeping I. Humans rule the planet not because we are the fastest, strongest, or even the most clever. It's because we are adaptable.

I did phrase this not as optimal as I should have. The alternatives here are really: Learn the 6th level and the 1th level Cleric base spell, or, for the same cost, instead learn the 6th level Cleric and the 6th level Druid spells. Obviously, the former is a more powerful combination.


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[...] A change that radical should have significant side-effects and many of those would be negative. That certainly seems more like a curse to me and could reasonably be a lower-level spell. If you can completely change someone's way of thinking without producing any negative side effects, that's some very powerful magic.

Yes, suitable side effects would certainly make sense. Maybe even including partial amnesia or other strange things that happen to the mind with such magic.

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In fact if you were to create that sort of spell, I could see two versions on the spell list. A lower level version with negative side effects and then a higher level one that eliminates them.

As well as separate spells for changing from Realm of Arms  to Realm of Arms, RoA to RoC (semi), RoA to RoE (full), RoA to RoE/RoC (hybrid), and so on, with the more drastic changes requiring higher levels.

I still wonder, though, what could be other,. related spells on such a spell list?

Offline Hurin

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Re: RMU spell: Change profession
« Reply #27 on: May 05, 2023, 08:40:32 AM »

But I really don't see how such a spell would be 50th level. ChatGPT (which I, btw, asked for explanations of Rolemaster Unified concepts before, and it answered largely correctly) suggested 7th or 8th,.

I think you really do have to get away from using ChatGPT as an argument. The same program answered that characters in RM rolled a d100 die whenever they were attacked and then the attack roll and defense roll were compared to give the result on the attack chart. It says things that are obviously wrong.
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Offline Thot

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Re: RMU spell: Change profession
« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2023, 08:41:15 AM »

I did phrase this not as optimal as I should have. The alternatives here are really: Learn the 6th level and the 1th level Cleric base spell,

12th. I meant 12th!!

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or, for the same cost, instead learn the 6th level Cleric and the 6th level Druid spells. Obviously, the former is a more powerful combination.



Offline Thot

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Re: RMU spell: Change profession
« Reply #29 on: May 05, 2023, 08:42:22 AM »
[...]
I think you really do have to get away from using ChatGPT as an argument.
[...]

Let us just agree that it's a fun anecdote that it does indeed know RM exists. :)

Offline rdanhenry

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Re: RMU spell: Change profession
« Reply #30 on: May 05, 2023, 09:04:47 AM »
[...]
I think you really do have to get away from using ChatGPT as an argument.
[...]

Let us just agree that it's a fun anecdote that it does indeed know RM exists. :)

Wow. It's as smart as a search engine from the 90s.
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Offline jdale

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Re: RMU spell: Change profession
« Reply #31 on: May 05, 2023, 09:47:12 AM »
As of now, there is no such thing as a Warrior Mage in RMU.

That's why I switched my example to paladin. There certainly will be a warrior mage in the future though.

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But for the sake of the argument, let's use a Bard or Dabbler: At level 20, that character will have an OB of something like +110 from skill ranks alone (40 ranks at a cost of 3/5, or 8 per level).
Compared to a Fighter who switched to Magician at level 10 (or vice versa) and is now level 20: 12 points per level for 2 ranks in the primary weapon as a Magician,  4 points per level for 2 ranks as a fighter. Average cost: 8 Points per level! No difference there.

OB skills are an example where you do generally want to buy 2 ranks/level every level in your primary weapon -- at least up to 30 ranks (the limit for professional skill bonuses) where diminishing returns kick in. So it will make less difference. But for a semi, purchasing 1 rank/lvl of body development, power point development, spell lists, and combat/battle expertise skills is likely something you will have to do based on your limited DP pool. So taking into account those other skills, if I take my two example characters who, again, have:

Maneuver in Armor, Body Development, Fortitude, two Combat Expertise skills, two Combat Training skills, Directed Spells, Power Development, and five base lists

Purchase those skills 2 ranks/lvl while in the optimal class and 0 ranks/lvl in the other class, except now add 2 ranks/lvl in the primary weapon skill as magician. As a fighter they still spend 25 DP/lvl. As a magician, 37 DP/lvl. Over 20 levels, that's 620 DP. As a paladin, they spend 40 DP/lvl, for a total of 800 DP. So even paying for that weapon skill as a magician, the multiclassed character has still saved 180 DP, the equivalent of three full levels.


So far, arguments for extremely high levels for such spells seem to stem from a purely game balance point of view. I do not agree that there is even an issue there, but within a game world, magical researches wouldn't concern themselves with game balance. So why should it be harder to change a person's learning pattern than to, for instance, teleport several hundred meters?

The GM decides what magical research will and won't be successful. You can come up with a suitable in-game explanation for any ruling. Letting yourself get trapped by the in-game explanation without considering the bigger picture will get you into trouble.

In any case, completely redesigning someone's brain and aura while maintaining their existing knowledge, memories, and personality is several orders of magnitude more difficult than brain surgery. That does seem far more difficult to me than teleportation.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: RMU spell: Change profession
« Reply #32 on: May 05, 2023, 10:55:10 AM »

There certainly will be a warrior mage in the future though.


Hopefully I'll be able to help with that?
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: RMU spell: Change profession
« Reply #33 on: May 05, 2023, 08:58:04 PM »
This is exactly why changing profession is unbalanced. You gain the cheaper skill costs of another profession.

And loose the cheaper skill costs of your own profession, which will stop you from advancing further in a field where you're probably better at anyway (because stats).
I think you just aren't thinking this through.  If I take a Fighter and rank up my combat abilities fast and cheap, then switch to a pure caster and level spell abilities fast and cheap I'm going to be significantly powerful than either of those professions at an equal number of levels.

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If we were talking about simply allowing people to switch, this would hold true (because childhood and adolescence imprinting isn't easily changed, at least in humans), but we're looking at a mentalism caster who changes a person's mind with magic. Which is what they do, so it seems logical for some to try this. (skipping forward) ...but within a game world, magical researches wouldn't concern themselves with game balance.
I don't think I understand what you're saying here. Fictional in-game characters wouldn't concern themselves with game balance? That's meaningless to this discussion. We're talking about actual real-world game balance among your players.


Why do you believe that, say, knowing the 6th level Cleric base list spell Resurrection and the 6th level Druid base spell Underwater Breathing is better than knowing the 11th level Cleric base list spell Lifekeeping II?
As he already said: Versatility.  This is what makes casters generally more useful than arms users.  They have far more options and multiplying cheap access to spell lists multiplies those options.

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I find it fascinating that you cite ChatGPT as a reliable source and give it preference over experienced GMs and some of the actual RMU developers themselves.

I don't. I was just trying to tie in here that ChatGPT apparently knows RoleMaster. :D
I don't believe a second that ChatGPT 'knows' Rolemaster.  I think it can scrape the internet for very generalized information it doesn't really understand and bullshit it's way through a topic.
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Offline Thot

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Re: RMU spell: Change profession
« Reply #34 on: May 06, 2023, 04:34:27 PM »
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[...]
Let us just agree that it's a fun anecdote that it does indeed know RM exists. :)

Wow. It's as smart as a search engine from the 90s.

Well, in this particual instance it means the people who made must have fed it rulebooks, and not just forum posts. I find that interesting.

Offline Thot

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Re: RMU spell: Change profession
« Reply #35 on: May 06, 2023, 04:40:58 PM »
[...]
But for a semi, purchasing 1 rank/lvl of body development, power point development, spell lists, and combat/battle expertise skills is likely something you will have to do based on your limited DP pool. So taking into account those other skills, if I take my two example characters who, again, have:

Maneuver in Armor, Body Development, Fortitude, two Combat Expertise skills, two Combat Training skills, Directed Spells, Power Development, and five base lists

Purchase those skills 2 ranks/lvl while in the optimal class and 0 ranks/lvl in the other class, except now add 2 ranks/lvl in the primary weapon skill as magician. As a fighter they still spend 25 DP/lvl. As a magician, 37 DP/lvl. Over 20 levels, that's 620 DP. As a paladin, they spend 40 DP/lvl, for a total of 800 DP. So even paying for that weapon skill as a magician, the multiclassed character has still saved 180 DP, the equivalent of three full levels.

My point stands. He will be far less powerful than had he sticked with his first profession (even without looking at stat bonuses). Yes, he will be more multi-sided in his skills, but he'd have been better off to learn his spell lists higher and just overpower anything he cannot solve with the lack of a borad skill selection.

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[...]
In any case, completely redesigning someone's brain and aura while maintaining their existing knowledge, memories, and personality is several orders of magnitude more difficult than brain surgery. That does seem far more difficult to me than teleportation.

Well, I can at least theoretically find an imagination on how to do changing the way a person learns and what interests that person even without magic... but moving something without moving it? That must be magic, and thus is certainly more complicated.

Offline Thot

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Re: RMU spell: Change profession
« Reply #36 on: May 06, 2023, 05:20:49 PM »
[...]
I think you just aren't thinking this through.  If I take a Fighter and rank up my combat abilities fast and cheap, then switch to a pure caster and level spell abilities fast and cheap I'm going to be significantly powerful than either of those professions at an equal number of levels.

In fact no, you won't be. You might have a broader selection of decent skills. But the pure caster will be only as good as others HALF his level. And the fighter as well, though that may not be quite as relevant.

Half his level. Half.

The alternative being just levelling the other class' easy-to-learn skills at a much slower rate (a rank every other level or so, alternating that per level between different skills)  and getting a decent fraction of what such a very planned switch of profession would allow us to.

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[...]
I don't think I understand what you're saying here. Fictional in-game characters wouldn't concern themselves with game balance?

Yes. They have no concept of that. And the universe does not follow the rules of game balance either, unless the gods designed your fantasy world that way. But even if they did, see above: No issue.

But maybe what you are you asking is why I would want such a magic to be possible by the physical-magical laws of my game world? Because it has story potential, of course:

  • Used as a curse, alsways fun. Especially with young Fighters.
  • A way for players to correct their decision early in the game while not loosing that character's involvement in the campaign.
  • A change of perspective, just wanting to see the world though another provession's eyes for a few months.
  • A way to react to changes in the game world (such as: Magic is going away, for instance.)

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As he already said: Versatility.  This is what makes casters generally more useful than arms users.  They have far more options and multiplying cheap access to spell lists multiplies those options.

Would you rather have high levels spells or not? A DP that buys me a low-level spell is worth less than one that buys me a high-level spell, don't you agree?

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I don't believe a second that ChatGPT 'knows' Rolemaster. 

This could be a separate thread. :)

Offline Cory Magel

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Re: RMU spell: Change profession
« Reply #37 on: May 06, 2023, 07:07:23 PM »
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I think you just aren't thinking this through.  If I take a Fighter and rank up my combat abilities fast and cheap, then switch to a pure caster and level spell abilities fast and cheap I'm going to be significantly powerful than either of those professions at an equal number of levels.

In fact no, you won't be. You might have a broader selection of decent skills. But the pure caster will be only as good as others HALF his level. And the fighter as well, though that may not be quite as relevant.

Half his level. Half.
No, he won't be.  This would only be true if skills costs were the same between the two professions.

I'm right, you aren't thinking this through.  You're stuck on levels, but RM isn't really about levels, it's mainly about development points.  It doesn't matter near as much what level a character is as how many skill ranks they have.

This is assuming when he would have become a 6th level pure arms user you're just continuing to progress using the 6th level Exp requirements to make it be a '1st' level pure arms user.

Let's take Bob the fighter. So let's just keep this low level and say 5th level:
As a Fighter he'll have paid 1 and 3 development points (total of 4) to get two ranks of weapon skill per level vs a cure caster 1 rank at a DP cost of 9.
- At a 5th level fighter he's paid 20 points to get 10 ranks of weapon skills vs the 5 ranks that would cost him 90 if he were a pure caster.  He's paid 20DP less for twice as many ranks as a pure caster.
- If he bought spell levels he'd be pay 25 point per level for just OPEN spell lists. So as a Fighter that would cost 250 DP for 10 ranks in one spell list alone.  But he's not going to do that, cause he's not an idiot.

Now he become Bob the mage at 6th level.
- He's not going to pay 9DP per weapon ranks (which he could only do once per level) cause, again he's not an idiot and has 10 ranks already, which is far better than most pure casters.
- Next, he's developing Base spell lists, more powerful than Open and Closed, for 3 ranks per level at 3 DP per rank.  So we'll say he levels four Base spell lists to 15th level potentially for 180 DP.  So he's paid 80 DP less for three times as many ranks in four times the spell lists.

At 10th level Bob has saved has, at minimum, twice as many weapon ranks for 28.5% the normal cost and access to six times as many, more powerful, spells for 72% the normal cost.
And we haven't even talked about Body Development, Armor skills, Combat maneuver skills, Power Point ranks, etc, etc.

If he as good at Combat as a 10th level pure arms user or at Casting as a 10th level pure caster? Nope, but he's nowhere near 'half' the character incredibly more versatile.

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I don't think I understand what you're saying here. Fictional in-game characters wouldn't concern themselves with game balance?
Yes. They have no concept of that. And the universe does not follow the rules of game balance either, unless the gods designed your fantasy world that way. But even if they did, see above: No issue.
But you're talking about changing game system rules (and the resulting imbalances in it), not the in-game fictional world. Not at all the same thing.

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I don't believe a second that ChatGPT 'knows' Rolemaster. 
This could be a separate thread. :)
ChatGPT is not intelligent. It doesn't 'understand' anything.  It scraps the internet for information and regurgitates that information based on perimeters you set for it.
It's like the computer 'Waston' that played Jeopardy on a bigger scale.  It doens't know anything, it just searches a database for answers.
You could tell ChatGPT: 'Write me an essay on why the Easter Bunny is real' and it would.
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Offline jdale

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Re: RMU spell: Change profession
« Reply #38 on: May 06, 2023, 09:52:31 PM »
My point stands. He will be far less powerful than had he sticked with his first profession (even without looking at stat bonuses). Yes, he will be more multi-sided in his skills, but he'd have been better off to learn his spell lists higher and just overpower anything he cannot solve with the lack of a borad skill selection.

I strongly disagree. The fighter-magician will be a much more powerful character than the semi. At best you are making an argument that pure casters are much more powerful than semis (indeed that they are better than all other professions), and the general trend in RM is that this is incorrect especially at high levels.


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Well, I can at least theoretically find an imagination on how to do changing the way a person learns and what interests that person even without magic... but moving something without moving it? That must be magic, and thus is certainly more complicated.

Magic, in a setting where magic exists and people routinely use it, is not necessarily complicated. But as I said, you can come up with an in-game justification for anything. So you should be considering the game mechanics ramifications and let them inform your in-game narrative.
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Offline rdanhenry

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Re: RMU spell: Change profession
« Reply #39 on: May 06, 2023, 10:33:05 PM »
If you ignore game balance, a spell that outright kills someone is far lower level than calling up a massive ball of fire to chuck at them. Indeed, a number of 1st level spells would be absolutely lethal if not reined in by spell type or other limitations to prevent use as casual engines of death.

So, go ahead, make death spells first level. See how players like your world where spell levels are assigned without a thought for game balance.
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