Topic: RMU spell: Change profession

[Thot]

[...] In my game I allow redesign of assignment of ranks for previous levels provided the player can give a good answer on why they got it wrong in the first place. Having a spell that allow you rebuild character is just my houserule changed to "cast a spell to do it".

Yes, basically. It just gives an in-game reason why and how such a thing could be happening. What level would you assign that one?

[...]If both spells exist in a balanced game the "Greater Profession Change" must be massively higher level since this spell would give characters that are massively stronger.

"Massively higher" than the other means... 5 levels? 10? 30?

And how would you justify this in terms of in-game magical world mechanics? Or don't you?

[tbigness]

You cannot justify the mechanics as the this whole thing is just what is called an in game reason to change a character profession as part of a story. So why have it available to just anyone rather than a Supernatural Entity that can (Wish) the change with or without a pact for the service. That way you would not have to worry about level and have it as an in game mechanic.

If you want I can see a temporary change for a period of time to your Change Profession as version of DND Spell that changes a spell caster to a fighter for the duration, Transformation I do believe. This can be applied on the Physical Changes type list. If you want to go this route then you can create a whole list that gives temporary changes to different professions abilities in multiple realms. I would say Arcane but that does not exist yet.

[Thot]

You cannot justify the mechanics as the this whole thing is just what is called an in game reason to change a character profession as part of a story. So why have it available to just anyone rather than a Supernatural Entity

Because I may be playing in a game world where... magic is being performed by mere mortals?

[Cory Magel]

Seriously, you all need to stop encouraging him to continue such a pointless discussion.
He either has almost no grasp of system mechanics balance or he's just trolling at this point.

[katastrophe]

Seriously, you all need to stop encouraging him to continue such a pointless discussion.
He either has almost no grasp of system mechanics balance or he's just trolling at this point.

Likely the latter but also “no grasp” is “no concern for”

[Thot]

It is quite disheartening to see people becoming this impolite, aggressive even, over a thought experiment in an RPG.

[Cory Magel]

What disheartening is:

- You think ChatGPT is support of your ideas when it's quite obviously a flawed source (there really is no 'I' in 'AI' currently).
- You ignore pretty much everyone telling you what you want to do would be moderately to greatly overpowered.
- You continue to argue, with pretty much everyone again, when they all tell you the spell idea of it should be extremely high level.
- You obviously do not understand how the professions are balanced against each other in terms of capabilities and don't care to learn.
- You regularly contradict yourself (like claiming you want to make characters more diverse from each other... by giving them access to each others specialties..?).
- You obviously have no concept of how development points and skill cost/progression impact character balance and don't care to learn.
- You don't seem to understand even the most basic balancing factors throughout the system as a whole (claiming absurd things like Healing is unbalancing to Damage).
- Most ridiculous of all, you actually have the gall to think no one, not even the original system developers or designers posting here, have/has considered or tried what you're talking about since the 1980's.  Apparently you think everyone here is just talking out of their rear ends like you are.

I would say, based on everything you've posted so far, that it's obvious you haven't actually tried it yourself and effectively taken advantage of the benefits it would provide, but I think there's a very high chance that you wouldn't actually realize it until maybe players using it started to see for themselves the resulting balance issue between characters.

I'm sure there's more, but the point is you're just going to ignore everything you're told, post nonsense and talk in circles until someone with a similar lack of understanding of how professions are designed ignorantly tells you you've stumbled upon some genius idea no one has thought of or tried in some forty-odd years of RM's existence.  It's useless to actually try to have an intelligent conversation with you about it.  Like I said, you've become a waste of time.

By all means, do whatever you want at your own table.  If you and your friends are all still having fun and no one has a problem with the results, go for it.  Play your own game.
But, here, on this forum, everyone is telling you your ideas are not balanced.  Get over it and move on.

[Dreven1]

You think ChatGPT is support of your ideas when it's quite obviously a flawed source (there really is no 'I' in 'AI' currently).

Cory, I was beginning to think this after watching this discussion. Spot on!

[Cory Magel]

You think ChatGPT is support of your ideas when it's quite obviously a flawed source (there really is no 'I' in 'AI' currently).

Cory, I was beginning to think this after watching this discussion. Spot on!

ChatGPT, and the various AI art programs, are just mimics.  Granted some of them are REALLY good at it.  But when it comes down to it they can only spit back out what they have been fed and if what they have been fed is garbage... they are going to spit out garbage.

[tbigness]

You cannot justify the mechanics as the this whole thing is just what is called an in game reason to change a character profession as part of a story. So why have it available to just anyone rather than a Supernatural Entity

Then all the answers reside in you, as you keep coming up with excuses to anything put out there. If you want it to be common then just have a mage guild offer the service for money or a quest and be done with it. Keep it out of players hand unless you want it for role playing and you have your answer. No matter what is put in here you have a counter diction so you have the answer that no one else has and be done with it.
Because I may be playing in a game world where... magic is being performed by mere mortals?

[Thot]

[list of bullshit]
I'm sure there's more, but the point is you're just going to ignore everything you're told,

That is just objectively wrong. I replied to each and every point (in fact, multiple times) and explained why the reasoning behind the "unbalanced" claim is flawed from several different angles. But those refutations are then ignored.

Maybe stop ignoring them. Maybe try to actually understand what that guy on the internet is telling you, instead of insulting him for the laughable heresy of proposing a new mechanic in a fantasy game.

[...]
But, here, on this forum, everyone is telling you your ideas are not balanced.  Get over it and move on.

Well, I have shown time and again how this is just objectively wrong from multiple angles. Discussions aren't votes.  This isn't about opinions or taste, but about stringent logic and clear thinking.

And sorry, Cory, you especially are not particularly good at that, if this thread is any indication. As a result, you get into an offensive tone and mood with outright insulting vocabulary as soon as you cannot follow. Instead of a logical discussion, you just preach your beliefs and repeat them over and over again without offering any insights as to why you believe those things, other than hinting at a story like "I tried this back in RM2 and my version of it did break my campaign and made me hate myself and now I have to stop anything like that from ever happening again".

You can just stop posting in a thread you don't like, you know. And even without being aggressive, offensive or laughably inappropriately condescending. (And I hope now you know how that feels on the other side).[/list]

[Cory Magel]

I'd quote your reply... but, as you'd say, it's a bunch of bullshit. Anyone can read the thread and see the validity of my statements.
I suggest you get over it, move on, and stop wasting everyone's time.

[cdcooley]

A wise person once wrote,

Seriously, you all need to stop encouraging him...

But a wiser person would have said "we all" instead.

[Thot]

So, this is a 20th level character who was born, raised and/or educated as a Fighter in his youth, and switched to being a Healer at level 10. This took two spells: One to change his realm of magic to hybrid Channeling/Mentalism, and one to actually change his profession.

• OB with main weapon (and 3 others from Melee): 104
• Hit points: 122
• 5 Combat Expertise skills (Blind Fighting, Multiple Attacks , etc.): +50
• Power Points: 104
• Knows the Healer Base lists to level 20 and 4 Open lists from Channeling and Mentalism to level 10, as well as 6 Closed lists from Channeling and
• Mentalism to level 10

And this is a 20th-level-character who just was born, raised and educated as a healer and just forced himself to ALSO learn combat-relevant skills.

• OB with main weapon (but no others): 104
• Hit points: 122
• No Combat Expertise skills
• Power Points: 134
• Knows the Healer Base lists 4 Open lists from Channeling and Mentalism to level 20, as well as 6 Closed lists from Channeling and Mentalism to level 20, and 3 more Open lists to level 18.

Finally, here's a  20th-level-character who just was born, raised and educated as a fighter and just forced himself to ALSO learn healing skills and magic.

• OB with main weapon: 134 (108 with a few others)
• Hit points: 122
• Combat Expertise skills: Multiple Attacks +10
• Power Points: 88
• Knows 4 Healer base lists to level 3 and 2 Healer Base lists to level 4 (so he spent 15 points per level on Restricted lists; there are certainly more efficient approaches).

All three of  these characters have the same statistics, geared towards this hybrid role.

The Fighter-turned-Healer is more versatile in a fight than a Healer with fighter training, but has lower OB than a fighter with some magical Healing training.

I see no balance issue. Even if you find something to nitpick here and there, the possible advantages from changing professions are minor, overall.

[tbigness]

This is just relearning levels in a different class also known as multi-classing or stopping one profession to start another.

The intent on the professions is to have a character with a learning process that best equates to a specific profession, IE a character can pick up stealth type skills with ease but finds magic a very difficult concept to grasp. It is easier to sneak around than fighting up front though can fight in a pinch.

What you suggest is a character that can change the mindset to a different profession. Is this change all levels or select levels and keep the rest for the former profession skills acquired to that changed level? Again you can house rule what ever you want, the talk on this thread is that you are one or a few that wants this, so do what you want and get on with it.

[pastaav]

I am at a loss for words...trying to evaluate professional change spells without looking at DP spent? 

[jdale]

Fighters can't learn Healer base lists, not even at the Restricted cost, because they aren't the right realm (and can't be, because those are hybrid lists). If a fighter wanted some magical healing ability, picking up the open channeling list Concussion's Way isn't too bad (7/10), but the closed list Blood Law would be 15/20 so that's a minimum of a quarter of your DP every level you purchase it. And it's not as good as the Healer list (for a fighter, the subconscious casting ability of the Healer lists would be pretty huge).

Whether other base lists are available as Restricted lists is a GM call. Personally, I would be hesitant especially for an Arms character. I might limit the number of lists to be taken that way, or disallow it entirely.

It's generally true that any character can max out their weapon OB ranks (although the lack of a professional skill will keep them from matching OB, and typically stats won't be as high either). For a Healer, that's 5/7, not prohibitive although it will cost you some versatility. The advantage of a Fighter is usually in their hits (but Healers are an exception there) and in the expertise skills. The Fighter is going to be able to get away with attacking while moving, with multiple attacks, heavy armor, etc etc, and they'll also be able to have more OB skills (e.g., they can also fight at range, and maybe unarmed, or get full benefit of a shield). The Healer needs to invest a lot of points in their defense (shield skill, armor), so probably in the total scheme of offensive-plus-defensive capability they are going to fall short on one side or the other. Only looking at OB overlooks that.

Pastaav's point about comparing total DP expenditure is also pretty important, since that's the measure of how much versatility you are giving up.

[Cory Magel]

I am at a loss for words...trying to evaluate professional change spells without looking at DP spent? 

Yeah, nevermind that he's using 20th level characters to try and imply it's not unbalanced (kinda laughable), but it just proves my point about not understanding overall DP expenditure and character versatility all over again.

[Thot]

I am at a loss for words...trying to evaluate professional change spells without looking at DP spent? 

That is why I made three full characters, as indicated above. They all spent 60 DP per level (85 in the first two). I could upload the entire charatcer sheets (spreadhseet version), but if you don't trust my judgement, you can just as well invest 20 minutes and do it yourself to see that the supposed balance problem just doesn't exist.

[Thot]

Fighters can't learn Healer base lists, not even at the Restricted cost, because they aren't the right realm (and can't be, because those are hybrid lists).

If a magical Realm is learned and not inborn, that is true. But if your Realm is an inborn quality, then of course there could be Fighters with a hybrid Realms well, I'd say. But that, of course, depends on the game world.

If a fighter wanted some magical healing ability, picking up the open channeling list Concussion's Way isn't too bad (7/10),

Yes, or going Mentalism and use Self-Healing (with the added advantage of being able to use armor better). That's why I pointed out that there'd be more efficient ways than using the Healer base lists even if your GM allows that.

The main point in this little experiment was to show how the suppoosedly disastrous balance issues with profession changes are, in effect, really minor even when playing a level 20 character (and even more so on lower levels).

Balance between professions is achieved within a level. I agree that it would be totally unbalanced in any definition of the word if you could switch professions while doing the levelling (so, after having spent 30 DP, you'd change from Fighter to Magician), but I'd advise against such a spell anyway.

I suspect most people's objections stem from earlier versions of RM, when you had spell learning costs of 2/* and such, which would of course lead to people just learning 10 levels of a list at once and suddenly become powerful mages. And yes, if you use the optional rule of "all ranks after the first cost the second cost, but you can learn as many as you want in one level", this also breaks apart a bit. But I would advise against that anyway - after all, if  wanted to do that, why would I use levels at all and not just give single-digit costs for all professions, handing out DP's directly?