Topic: Is anyone else waiting for the next 2 books—and adventure— before playing RMU?

[nash]

To be fair on ICE, I think the core system books need a lot more editing and polishing than setting books.  So hopefully once they are out, the others can move at better clip.

* nash is forever an optimist.

[kwickham]

https://ironcrown.co.uk/ICEforums/index.php?topic=20387.0

That thread kinda answers your question, kinda. In other words, ICE’s definition of soon doesn’t exactly jibe with what I would call soon.

You know how some people count in dog years?
Maybe it is "soon", like in Ent (treant) years.

As Treebeard has said such thing several times.
"Things will go as they will; and there is no need to hurry to meet them."
—Treebeard, The Two Towers

“You must understand, young Hobbit, it takes a long time to say anything in Old Entish. And we never say anything unless it is worth taking a long time to say.”
—Treebeard, The Two Towers

[kwickham]

I suppose that is so, only if Shadow World writers and creators are quickly willing to adopt and use the new version. If not and nostalgic mentality prevails, then even Shadow World might become a relic of the past—ICE's legacy setting similar to "The World of Greyhawk", replaced by whatever their new setting similar to "Forgotten Realms" or "Eberron" becomes.

If some major SW writers and creators don't fill the void, then move on from it.

Or they could publish it system-agnostic. Less technical work, and more flexibility for the users since they can adapt it to their own system variant. Give a general idea of the power of the main NPCs (from "low power" to "world threat", for instance) and their area(s) of expertise, and there you go.

To be perfectly honest, with the exception of the Master Atlas racial stats and the extra spell lists, I've never used any technical information in any Shadow World product. I buy the books for contextual information only.

If at least one setting, even one of the two settings (Cyradon or Shadow World), has support for RMU soon, I'm fine with either.
If Cyradon's setting book releases with HARP and RMU support, I'll buy that. If Shadow World releases the setting book with HARP and RMU support, I'll buy that.
It's a bit unusual to support different types of magic systems for something that is high-magic unless they are similar enough.

Or something entirely new may be ideal that is 100% RMU based.

[Cory Magel]

Cory and Specter,
What could be done to bring you over to RMU? What you state above is something I referenced earlier as RMU being a “bookshelf game”. Is there a point where you’d run RMU instead?

Well, two thoughts. Maybe three actually.

Firstly, the danger of a system like RM, that has tended to draw in veteran gamers and that is pretty consistently customized by the user due to the flexibility of the system, is that they've created 'their' system and it's going to be hard to get someone to move away from that. RMU has to do everything my version of RM does, but better. I've been using it as a complete system for 25+ years. I've actually 'pulled apart' (via copies) all the books and made my own complete binders (Races/Cultures, Professions, Training Packages and Skills, Talents and Flaws, Open/Closed/Evil/Training Package Spell Lists, and Base Spell Lists). You just can't design for the individual, you must design for the average user, which I do not think I can claim to be.

Second, I wrote the Channeling Companion, so I'm perfectly comfortable creating my own material from scratch anyhow. In this respect I don't think I'm a good example for anyone to try to use as a gauge for how well RMU was done being a factor in my using it.

It's highly unlikely I'll use RMU as a system, just like a good chunk of RM2 users never moved on to RMSS. The only reason I'm using RMSS instead of RM2 is because, while we used RM1/RM2 to modify D&D, we moved to RM as a complete system when RMSS was coming out and it was far more organized for the new user. I'd also argue it was better balanced in the end also (power creep in any long standing system, RM2 in this case, was part of that but I also think RMSS retained its balance better in the long run).

Last, I'm not going to get into detail, but there are specific things I don't like about RMU and some of those things make it more difficult to back convert than ever before - so again being comfortable just creating my own material is a drawback for RMU. That said, since I do design my own material from scratch at times, RMU may actually give some inspiration for things I can back convert with some moderate tweaking. Although it's unlikely it'll do that for some time. I'll be happy if I get proven wrong in all cases there.

I'll also likely buy it in order to support ICE in the end out of respect for most those involved (and shared trama lol).

[lordmalachdrim]

Well in less then two days I will be done waiting as the new campaign for my online group that we've been delaying since the release of the core book will start regardless of any additional material having been released. We just wont be using RMU it seems.

[Cory Magel]

Or they could publish it system-agnostic. Less technical work, and more flexibility for the users since they can adapt it to their own system variant. Give a general idea of the power of the main NPCs (from "low power" to "world threat", for instance) and their area(s) of expertise, and there you go.

To be perfectly honest, with the exception of the Master Atlas racial stats and the extra spell lists, I've never used any technical information in any Shadow World product. I buy the books for contextual information only.

If I ever actually tried to actively make money off of RPG design it would likely be by publishing system agnostic material. Settings (world, city, dungeons/caves, individual buildings), campaign ideas, NPC write-ups, etc.

[kwickham]

I bought RMU Spell Law.
I did look at the Dabbler spells to see that it became similar to what Jdale posted in that one post several years ago.
Double checking, I checked for an RMU adventure again, but didn't see any yet.
Hopefully RMU Creature Law(s) goes well.

[Malim]

A system without a sitting Irani gonna go well.
I personally can't think of a system I've played that didn't have a setting with it.
As an ice fan I hope I'm wrong.
But what I crave most from ice is a swu (shadow world unified)

[Hurin]

A system without a sitting Irani gonna go well.

Everyone loves a good sitting Irani (especially if they are on a nice carpet), but I'm not sure they are necessary.

(Sorry, just could not resist!  )

[Malim]

But on the serious note.. Am i wrong?

[nash]

But on the serious note.. Am i wrong?

Yes & No.

Yes; you need a setting. 

Does ICE need to provide one?   No.

Should ICE provide one?  Absolutely.

Why can we go for a bit without a setting:  Personally I am totally happy to run RM2 & RMSS material.  Literally the only change you must is to change is the AT.  The numbers are 'technically' wrong, but it's fine.  I've run my own setting with RM quite a few times.

But yeah, Rolemaster is kinda weird in that it is rules without a setting.  Most other RPGs are setting with rules in a way.

Do I want some RMU based Shadow World... yes, a thousand times yes.

[Cory Magel]

Yes; you need a setting. 
Does ICE need to provide one?   No.
Should ICE provide one?  Absolutely.

Why can we go for a bit without a setting:  Personally I am totally happy to run RM2 & RMSS material.  Literally the only change you must is to change is the AT.  The numbers are 'technically' wrong, but it's fine.  I've run my own setting with RM quite a few times.

But yeah, Rolemaster is kinda weird in that it is rules without a setting.  Most other RPGs are setting with rules in a way.

Do I want some RMU based Shadow World... yes, a thousand times yes.

I question if the average RM user really needs RM to provide them a setting.  You have MERP, which I'm sure a good number use.  You have Shadow World, which I'm sure a good number use.  Then you have those who have created their own setting, which I would guess is pretty common for the kind of users RM has.

I also question if ICE would be capable of creating a truly compelling setting with the current situation (i.e. ICE is made up of people of which this is not their primary job).
I do not think a mash of fan provided material will ever provide a high quality product without ICE having to put enough effort into that that they might as well just create their own.

I think the best possibility of an 'official' ICE setting is somehow continue to work with Shadow World.  What has been published for it is pretty rich and detailed, plus it's established in both Rolemaster and Spacemaster.  All the various work could be gone through and updated, then they could start working on fleshing out more of the one side of the world, leaving the other portion of the world free for RM users to do what they like.

[kwickham]

But on the serious note.. Am i wrong?

Yes & No.

Yes; you need a setting. 

Does ICE need to provide one?   No.

Should ICE provide one?  Absolutely.

Why can we go for a bit without a setting:  Personally I am totally happy to run RM2 & RMSS material.  Literally the only change you must is to change is the AT.  The numbers are 'technically' wrong, but it's fine.  I've run my own setting with RM quite a few times.

But yeah, Rolemaster is kinda weird in that it is rules without a setting.  Most other RPGs are setting with rules in a way.

Do I want some RMU based Shadow World... yes, a thousand times yes.

I'm pretty sure that a setting will be published eventually. I'm just in favor of having something available for level 1 player characters available ASAP over grand sourcebooks focusing on worldbuilding—however, current ICE may prioritize putting out the world sourcebook first.

My view is because Core Law does not include a beginning adventure unlike two of my previous-incarnation ICE books MERP and even my RMX few-page adventure section. It only takes a few pages to provide that content. (MERP did it with about 20 pages and RMX did it with 4 pages)

To me, an RPG game system without a beginning adventure is like a board game without any board. Although some may say that the rule books are more like a card games not requiring any board. Or that I should make my own board. To me, all the maps, NPC stats, stories, and encounters are the board to play the game. Sure, I can try to convert my old settings used in other games to RMU or use newly GM-created content, but I'm too busy doing other things ATM. And I'd rather to support ICE writers who create core-based adventure content creation. My time will be a) trying to learn how the rules have changed since beta and b) trying to make the content accessible and easy enough for my players to enjoy. If I can buy the material for setting already made, that's what I'd like to do.

I know I've been very critical of expanded/alternative (companion) content in the past, and I know those are ahead. However, almost none of that expended material can be used on for a game setting series (unless it becomes core content)—because a GM can only be assumed to have the core books.

[Mordenkainen]

I may be weird but I've never looked for a setting to be bundled with RM. I liked Shadow World but never used it wholesale. I've designed several campaign worlds for Rolemaster in which the rules concepts play into the world design (e.g. the various magical realms clearly influence the setting) but I've never seen why I need a book telling me that this kingdom is over here and that one is over there.

[kwickham]

I may be weird but I've never looked for a setting to be bundled with RM. I liked Shadow World but never used it wholesale. I've designed several campaign worlds for Rolemaster in which the rules concepts play into the world design (e.g. the various magical realms clearly influence the setting) but I've never seen why I need a book telling me that this kingdom is over here and that one is over there.

After Arms Law 1980 was published, the first RM book, if I remember correctly The Iron Wind 1981 for the Loremaster campaign world was published second. Even before Spell Law 1981, Character Law 1982, Claw Law 1982 or Campaign Law 1982 Three other setting books were published early in RM production in 1984. They were set in Eastern Middle Earth for MERP. I know they were later integrated into Shadow World Jaiman.

[rdanhenry]

While I think a larger setting may be useful, some low-level scenarios that cover a small area are going to be the most immediately useful items to get out. Something one can actually play.

[5th Knight of Xar]

part of the fun of being a GM is designing your own world, your own setting and "everything" in that world. I've been doing this for 2 decades, after leaving Middle-earth in the early 90s. Rolemaster/RMU has the tools you need to do this.

ICE is a small team that highly unlikely will take on the task of designing a new fantasy world and setting, when their focus is making and launching books for their rpg systems.

[Hurin]

While I think a larger setting may be useful, some low-level scenarios that cover a small area are going to be the most immediately useful items to get out. Something one can actually play.

Exactly my thoughts too.

[kwickham]

Another thing that disappeared was zine support.

Guild Companion online issues used to support past products, but that ended in 2019. They published setting material.

Instead of that, ICE can even publish small quarterly—if not monthly— PDF zines that support RMU, HARP, Spacemaster, Shadow World, Cyradon, and Spacemaster settings.

Or don't call them zines. Give them individual titles that focus on material a specific setting, set of rules, or topic.

Sure, based on the past, the magazines runs don't last beyond the life of the prime of the system. But at least for maybe a year or two, a few issues can be published. They can just plan on a zine that exists just as long as interest fuels it. When interest dwindles, stop publishing it.

[5th Knight of Xar]

or just place their full focus where it's needed: the rpg books themselves for the various systems, getting them planned, done, finished and out to us happy buyers