Author Topic: Stat gain based on skill ranks  (Read 1358 times)

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Offline netbat

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Stat gain based on skill ranks
« on: November 05, 2021, 07:39:59 PM »
I have been thinking lately of using the purchase of skill ranks to increase stats instead of the die roll at level-up in RAW. Has anyone else done this or something like it? My initial thought was that each skill rank purchased gives a point towards temp stat increase for each stat associated with the skill. Stat increases cost 1 point plus the current stat bonus per point of temp stat increase. I expect it will slow down initial stat gains some, but I haven't run the numbers yet.
Any thoughts or suggestions? Should I limit it to one point for any one stat for each skill rank or leave it at all three?
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Stat gain based on skill ranks
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2021, 08:04:37 PM »
Maybe let us know what the purpose/goal is. Why do you want to do this?
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Offline netbat

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Re: Stat gain based on skill ranks
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2021, 08:23:31 PM »
Maybe let us know what the purpose/goal is. Why do you want to do this?
I have always felt the random increases in stats at level up was too metagame and, well, random. Your average mage levels up and spends all his DP on spells, lore and PP dev(all of which is supposed to be a result of his experience) but strangely his strength goes up by 20? In the real world, the way you get stronger/better/faster is though practice, so I have been trying to think of a way to keep the idea of increasing temp stats up to your potential but making it less random and more tied to practice and and exercise.
I have also been moving away from too many level dependent features in general.
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: Stat gain based on skill ranks
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2021, 08:55:56 PM »
I have always felt the random increases in stats at level up was too metagame and, well, random. Your average mage levels up and spends all his DP on spells, lore and PP dev(all of which is supposed to be a result of his experience) but strangely his strength goes up by 20? In the real world, the way you get stronger/better/faster is though practice, so I have been trying to think of a way to keep the idea of increasing temp stats up to your potential but making it less random and more tied to practice and and exercise.
I like it and it makes a lot of sense to me.
I have also been moving away from too many level dependent features in general.
Ultimately, I think RM needs to shed the level-based design, so things that make this seem more and more possible are awesome.
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Offline jdale

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Re: Stat gain based on skill ranks
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2021, 10:26:18 AM »
I do agree that the stat gains e.g. in RMSS are too random (and also too fast). And by the nature of the stat curves, it's the stats that are worst that improve the most.

RMU gives only 2 stat gains per level, you pick which stat. Generally the player will pick the stats that are most relevant to their skills, so I think it achieves that with a lot less bookkeeping.

Personally I like some randomness. People grow in unexpected and unplanned ways. So I split the difference by letting the player pick one and select the second stat randomly.

If you want to dispense with levels, you could just give a stat gain every 30 DP expended.
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Offline netbat

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Re: Stat gain based on skill ranks
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2021, 06:01:37 PM »
Okay, I ran the numbers through for three of my players' characters from 2nd to 8th level and found a few issues. (I didn't have the original stat set and 1st level sheets).
  • Using ranks in both skill and category ends up at potential one to two levels behind RAW. (Assuming you use at least one stat gain roll set during chargen)
  • Using only skill adds at least one more level if not more.
  • Pure spell users will max out their realm stat pretty quickly due to spell list purchases.
  • If there is a wide spread between temp and potential and the pot is over 90, it can take a very long time to reach the potential.
  • Con and Qu have almost no chance of developing quickly. Only three categories use Con and one of those is Body Development. Only two categories use Qu. Only one of the characters I looked at hit Qu potential at level 8 and all three had potentials in the mid to high 70s.
  • It definitely would force more skill development in "secondary" skills to increase the development stats.

If I end up using this I would probably allow ranks in melee skills to add one to Qu and would double the points for Con. It also wouldn't be worth it without modifying the character sheet/spreadsheet/chargen program to handle it. Keeping track of the fractions needed across levels is a pain.
On the plus side, it does look like it would re-inforce the need to spread skill training out.
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: Stat gain based on skill ranks
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2021, 08:41:27 PM »
  • Pure spell users will max out their realm stat pretty quickly due to spell list purchases.
Don't have any stat gains be based on spell list training. Spell users have a lot of power in RM, having this go to the non-casters is a minor step in the other direction. Instead, the skills that use the appropriate stats should be the ones that grant stat gains. 
  • If there is a wide spread between temp and potential and the pot is over 90, it can take a very long time to reach the potential.
Not a bug, those should take longer, so a feature, I would say.
  • Con and Qu have almost no chance of developing quickly. Only three categories use Con and one of those is Body Development. Only two categories use Qu. Only one of the characters I looked at hit Qu potential at level 8 and all three had potentials in the mid to high 70s.
Well, one of those (Body Development) uses Co as primary and it such an important skill that is is likely to be trained in quite a bit, so Co should get some fairly decent movement.
  • It definitely would force more skill development in "secondary" skills to increase the development stats.
Another feature, in my book.
Quote
"Basket weaving?!?!" Dennis practically shouted. Samantha just got that sly, subtle grin she gets when she is about to spring a trap on the party, the rest of the players at the table did one of two things: gulp in fear, or sat back to enjoy the show. "Yup." Sam responded. "To increase your manual dexterity - i.e. agility," she continued, "basket weaving is the best skill. Well, that or knitting." Her eyes glinted evilly at Dennis' stricken look. "But, but, Shadowblade is a feared rogue and assassin! He is wanted in 5 of the great cities! He can't take up basket weaving!" Eyes darting around the table, pleading for some backup, but Dennis could see that he wasn't going to be getting any help. Steve was busily - too busily - studying his character sheet like he hasn't been using the same character for over a year now. Mary and Mark had their heads together, probably thinking about what trouble their characters can get the rest of the group in (damn gnome illusionists, always playing jokes on the wrong NPCs!). And Brian, Will and Carrie were all watching the action, passing snacks around like they were at the theater enjoying the next big superhero movie. Nope, no help at all. Signing, Dennis wrote down "Basket Weaving" under the Crafts section of the skill lists Years later (in game) as the now retired "Shadowblade" (Derek McCallum really) was there, his grand children sitting at his feet as he told them stories of his adventuring days. Most of the stories seemed too grand for their wrinkled old, but favorite, grandparent to have done. All the while, Derek's hands continued as if they had a mind of their own weaving the dried grass into another gift basket. Looks like this one is going to have a dragon on it. The youngest girl, Agatha, hoped it was for her.
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Scratch that. Power attracts the corruptible.

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Offline netbat

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Re: Stat gain based on skill ranks
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2021, 12:53:15 PM »
  • Pure spell users will max out their realm stat pretty quickly due to spell list purchases.
Don't have any stat gains be based on spell list training. Spell users have a lot of power in RM, having this go to the non-casters is a minor step in the other direction. Instead, the skills that use the appropriate stats should be the ones that grant stat gains. 
I am not to worried about it, it is not too much different than getting good stat gain rolls every level. Their slow progression in Con and Str will make up for it. The pure spell user I am looking at would probably not be able to hit potential Str until level 9 and that is only an 82.

  • Con and Qu have almost no chance of developing quickly. Only three categories use Con and one of those is Body Development. Only two categories use Qu. Only one of the characters I looked at hit Qu potential at level 8 and all three had potentials in the mid to high 70s.
Well, one of those (Body Development) uses Co as primary and it such an important skill that is is likely to be trained in quite a bit, so Co should get some fairly decent movement.
Even with two ranks in BD per level, that is only 4 points per level where the normal spread for other stats(except Qu) is around 13 per level due to the number of skills. To have similar movement on Con you would have to also buy 2 ranks in 2-3 skills and category in Athletic-Endurance(and I have dumped scaling and sprinting as redundant and have not seen a use for distance running as a skill leaving only games, swimming and rowing) or Athletic-Brawn.
 
Quote
"Basket weaving?!?!" Dennis practically shouted. Samantha just got that sly, subtle grin she gets when she is about to spring a trap on the party, the rest of the players at the table did one of two things: gulp in fear, or sat back to enjoy the show. "Yup." Sam responded. "To increase your manual dexterity - i.e. agility," she continued, "basket weaving is the best skill. Well, that or knitting." Her eyes glinted evilly at Dennis' stricken look. "But, but, Shadowblade is a feared rogue and assassin! He is wanted in 5 of the great cities! He can't take up basket weaving!" Eyes darting around the table, pleading for some backup, but Dennis could see that he wasn't going to be getting any help. Steve was busily - too busily - studying his character sheet like he hasn't been using the same character for over a year now. Mary and Mark had their heads together, probably thinking about what trouble their characters can get the rest of the group in (damn gnome illusionists, always playing jokes on the wrong NPCs!). And Brian, Will and Carrie were all watching the action, passing snacks around like they were at the theater enjoying the next big superhero movie. Nope, no help at all. Signing, Dennis wrote down "Basket Weaving" under the Crafts section of the skill lists Years later (in game) as the now retired "Shadowblade" (Derek McCallum really) was there, his grand children sitting at his feet as he told them stories of his adventuring days. Most of the stories seemed too grand for their wrinkled old, but favorite, grandparent to have done. All the while, Derek's hands continued as if they had a mind of their own weaving the dried grass into another gift basket. Looks like this one is going to have a dragon on it. The youngest girl, Agatha, hoped it was for her.
Yes! that is what I am aiming for ;D
There is no frigate like a book to take us lands away -
                                                   Emily Dickenson

Offline RandalThor

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Re: Stat gain based on skill ranks
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2021, 07:39:07 AM »
I am not to worried about it, it is not too much different than getting good stat gain rolls every level. Their slow progression in Con and Str will make up for it. The pure spell user I am looking at would probably not be able to hit potential Str until level 9 and that is only an 82.
Their STR & CON developing slowly makes a lot of sense, they are stats that spellcasters don't train a lot. And, the fact that they are slow in this along with their spellcasting stat, again, just makes it a feature and not a bug to me.

Look at it this way: The easy/quick path gives you early gains, but is ultimately the shorter path and you "cap-out" quicker. On the other hand, the slower path allows you to, ultimately, get more bang for your buck; you just have to work for it for quite a bit longer. In fact, that to me is the real gatekeeper when it comes to spellcasting in RPGs. It is not that you have to have a "special ability" ("Midichlorians" anyone?), but that it takes sooooo loooonngg to get anywhere. Did you ever play AD&D 1e? In there, you could have 2 human, 1st level characters, one a fighter and the other a wizard and they would have seriously different starting ages. In the DMG it suggested starting ages for those two classes as such: Fighter = 15+1d4 years old, Wizard = 24+2d8 years old, so an average of 17.5 for Fighters and 31 for Wizards. To me that reflected the idea that learning magic took time. So, for this instance, it would make sense that their stats developed along the same trajectory.

Even with two ranks in BD per level, that is only 4 points per level where the normal spread for other stats(except Qu) is around 13 per level due to the number of skills. To have similar movement on Con you would have to also buy 2 ranks in 2-3 skills and category in Athletic-Endurance(and I have dumped scaling and sprinting as redundant and have not seen a use for distance running as a skill leaving only games, swimming and rowing) or Athletic-Brawn.
What I was saying is that the in-game benefits of Body Development (as well as Power Point Development and anything hat increases Defense Bonus, for that matter) are greater than most other skills, so that balances out the fact that those stats that they use don't increase as quickly as other stats. The stat increases do not need to be balanced against each other, but balanced against what they do in-game.

In the case of Quickness it is a stat I don't actually think should exist as "quickness" is too vague/broad and the fact is, is training is what truly makes one quicker. The number of skill ranks in a skill should do more to determine how fast they are at performing that skill. This is how I like to handle RM Initiative: (Ag Bonus + In Bonus + Qu Bonus)/3 + One-half of the ranks in the character's highest combat skill (weapon, martial-arts, etc...) + any special mods (injury, talents, racial abilities, etc...) Though, I will say, that I think the way HARP handles it is better: Combat Perception. How aware you are of the actions of others, the environment and various factors is hugely important to Initiative; if you don't see/know about something, how can you deal with it at all? In RMSS/FRP there is a skill called Situational Awareness: Combat which I think worked great for an Initiative skill. Those classes that did a lot of fighting had lower costs in developing the skill, so they would generally have the skill at a higher bonus, which usually meant a higher Initiative. Because they have extensive combat training. But, this is a different topic, sorry for going off the rails.  ;D
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Offline Vladimir

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Re: Stat gain based on skill ranks
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2021, 08:52:16 PM »
  My fellow gamers have debated the issue of stat improvement for decades.

  I then ask, "What would it take for you to lose ten pounds? Twenty?"

  I used to have a gym membership that I'd use every other day when one of my friends, who used to play college football, would train me...and try to kill me. He could bench 500 lbs without a sweat and I topped off at 375. He'd do 50 lb curls and I'd struggle with 35 lbs.
  My friend was found dead at his office desk, of natural causes. Needless to say, I no longer had the motivation to work out.

  Motivation and Self-Discipline are crucial to self improvement. You want to improve your "stats" in real life? You have to devote the time and effort to implement actual training methods to make those improvements.
  General physical strength is more than weight lifting, it also includes symmetrical training, leg and back muscles through a regimen of various exercises, including running and swimming.
  Improving agility would be exercising on a balance beam or even juggling. Developing muscle memory and control to physically maneuver one's body through yoga and repetitive actions.

  Game-wise, I'm sure I could write up simple rules that players would need to apply if they want to raise their stats and instead of the massive jumps per level it could be spread out over a period of weeks, months or years, depending on the margin between temporary and max stats.

  Figure on how these goals might be met in real life and see if the remedies may apply.
   

 
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Offline Tywyll

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Re: Stat gain based on skill ranks
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2022, 06:40:01 PM »
  My fellow gamers have debated the issue of stat improvement for decades.

  I then ask, "What would it take for you to lose ten pounds? Twenty?"

  I used to have a gym membership that I'd use every other day when one of my friends, who used to play college football, would train me...and try to kill me. He could bench 500 lbs without a sweat and I topped off at 375. He'd do 50 lb curls and I'd struggle with 35 lbs.
  My friend was found dead at his office desk, of natural causes. Needless to say, I no longer had the motivation to work out.

  Motivation and Self-Discipline are crucial to self improvement. You want to improve your "stats" in real life? You have to devote the time and effort to implement actual training methods to make those improvements.
  General physical strength is more than weight lifting, it also includes symmetrical training, leg and back muscles through a regimen of various exercises, including running and swimming.
  Improving agility would be exercising on a balance beam or even juggling. Developing muscle memory and control to physically maneuver one's body through yoga and repetitive actions.

  Game-wise, I'm sure I could write up simple rules that players would need to apply if they want to raise their stats and instead of the massive jumps per level it could be spread out over a period of weeks, months or years, depending on the margin between temporary and max stats.

  Figure on how these goals might be met in real life and see if the remedies may apply.
   

 

But your life doesn't depend on being on top shape. I mean, we aren't playing desk Jackie's, we are playing adventurers. I don't see why abstracting some rapid self-improvement, especially when you consider how weak low level RM characters tend yo be, is such a bad thing.

My biggest beef with stat gains is how long it takes and how much of a pain it makes generating higher level characters.