Topic: How powerful would you rank these weapons?

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

I'm creating a magical spear an d a magical bardiche. However, I have mixed feelings about how powerful I made them, thus how balanced they'd be. As such, I'd like your opinion about how you'd rank them, in RM2 terms: modest, potent, most potent, and deserving of having whole legends about it (let's call that "legendary", as I hates calling such items "artefacts" ).

So, "Sublime Genius" is a spear in white alloy (+15 OB), giving +13% HPs to its holder (only when wielded, so its user loses 11.5% of his remaining HPs when putting it down). In combat, each round, its holder may sacrifice to it 5, 10 or 15 HPs to benefit in counterpart of a +10, +18 or +25 bonus to his OB and, if he takes his opponent down, to gain back 20 HPs.
So, how would you rank "Sublime Genius" with these figures? And what about with lower figures, +10% HPs, +10 / 15 / 20 to OB, and +15 HPs back, and with higher figures, +15%, +10 / 20 / 30 to OB, and +30 HPs?

Its counterpart, "Innate Genius" is a bardiche in ithilnaur (+25 OB).  In combat, each round, its holder may sacrifice to it 25 or 50 HPs to benefit in counterpart of a x2 or x3 damage multiplier and, if he takes his opponent down, to gain back 30 or 60 HPs.
As previously, how would you rank "Innate Genius" with such figures? And what about with different figures, such as 20 / 40 HPs to gain back 25 / 50 HPs, or 30 / 60 HPs to gain back 40 / 75 HPs?

[Hurin]

My vote would be for Most Potent at the very least, arguably legendary (very unique effects, especially since you can get more hit points back than you put in).

[Spectre771]

I would go with potent, especially for the spear as the wielder immediately loses 11.5% HP upon putting it down. 
 * - Is the 11.5% remaining HP or of normal full HP?  The latter could lead to instant unconsciousness upon putting the weapon down.

Because you have the negative effects to each, that balances out the Most Potent and "Those Having a Legendary Background" attached to them.  Those weapons are all insane bonuses and no negatives.  Not only have you balanced out some of the positive with some drawbacks, but you've also balanced it with "...if the foe is taken down, to gain back..."  Even the risk of sacrificing HP isn't a guarantee to take down the foe, so that's a gamble too.

If you were to remove any of the drawbacks, then the weapons would go to Most Potent easily.

Have you assigned a weapon level to them?

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

Thanks guys for your replies.

My vote would be for Most Potent at the very least, arguably legendary (very unique effects, especially since you can get more hit points back than you put in).

But if you only get back as many hit points as you put in, the weapons would be pretty weak.
For instance, "Sublime Genius" would be akin to from a +25 weapon that takes 5 HPs per round when its wielder doesn't take his opponent down or, at best, a +40 weapon that takes 15 HPs per round (when, blahblahblah…)! Granted, the +40 bonus is great, but you can find +30 Most Potent weapons with several other abilities, that would thus be IMO more beneficial to use.

The same way, "Innate Genius" would be comparable to a +25 weapon, at x2 or x3 damage… that takes 25 or 50 HPs any round when its wielder doesn't take his opponent down. "Piercer", a Most Potent weapon in the RoCo. VII, is only +10, but inflicts damage x3 to foes wearing non-metallic armor, foes wearing metallic armor being treated as if they were AT1. Whilst being slightly less damaging (as a note, x3 vs. AT13-20 is comparable to AT1), it is OTOH with no drawbacks… and 50 HPs a round is a lot!

I would go with potent, especially for the spear as the wielder immediately loses 11.5% HP upon putting it down. 
 * - Is the 11.5% remaining HP or of normal full HP?  The latter could lead to instant unconsciousness upon putting the weapon down.

Remaining HPs: it's the counterpart to gaining 13% when wielded (1/1.13 = 0.885) so that if someone takes "Sublime Genius" then immediately put it down, he ends with as many HPs as he had before.

Because you have the negative effects to each, that balances out the Most Potent and "Those Having a Legendary Background" attached to them.  Those weapons are all insane bonuses and no negatives.  Not only have you balanced out some of the positive with some drawbacks, but you've also balanced it with "...if the foe is taken down, to gain back..."  Even the risk of sacrificing HP isn't a guarantee to take down the foe, so that's a gamble too.

If you were to remove any of the drawbacks, then the weapons would go to Most Potent easily.

Ideally, I'd like to have weapons that are Potent tending toward Most Potent.

Have you assigned a weapon level to them?

I have no idea how this works, or what's its use! :p

Anyway, I think one way to consider it is to ask yourselves (or your players) whether you'd take these weapons, compared to similar Potent or Most Potent weapons. As a GM-only person, I cannot alas answer that… and, obviously, I cannot ask my own players since they'll encounter the person actually holding these weapons! 

[Hurin]

Yes, you both make some good points, and I had forgotten how insane some old RM2 items are. Taking that into consideration, I can see a good argument for making them just Potent. I still think the inherent bonuses (+15 OB and +13% hit points; and +25 OB, respectively) are quite good.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

As a note, the fact the weapons consume hit points before giving more back, thus in essence, heal their wielder if he takes down his opponent in the round he's using their ability, isn't just in order to balance the weapons' power: it's also to balance their wielder's moral bias. Let me explain that part: a weapon that heals its wielder when he kills his foes pushes him toward killing when in need of healing, but one that consumes part of his health when being used and only heals if he kills his foes with the strike for which he uses the weapon's power pushes him toward killing easy targets he's sure to kill in one hit when in need of healing.
A moral character may use the former, as he'd go after "evil" (and usually dangerous) beings since, as long as he's able to kill them, he'd get healed back (a bit). He may also not change his behaviour when owning the latter.
OTOH, an immoral character would most probably use the latter to kill random villagers (especially old people and children) whom he's sure to be able to easily kill in one strike. Even a more moral character who wouldn't kill his kin, may just kill little animals to get his healing…

In other hands, how someone uses these weapons' healing ability gives a hint of their moral bias…

[rdanhenry]

I think that you'll find wildly different attitudes among players toward these weapons, depending on how they feel about push-your-luck mechanics in an RPG. I'd prefer something a bit more modest, but more reliable (there's already enough chaos introduced by the dice, thanks), but a player that's more of a gambler might love them. Also, it depends on whether or not you pay the HP cost before or after the attack, as you could drop your HP to a point where you're taking a penalty because of it, which would be counterproductive.

As for "potent", "most potent", etc., these were never defined AFAIK, so it's guesswork at best. A better question might be "What weapons to your PCs already have and would you swap out one of these new weapons for one of those?"

[Spectre771]

Because you have the negative effects to each, that balances out the Most Potent and "Those Having a Legendary Background" attached to them.  Those weapons are all insane bonuses and no negatives.  Not only have you balanced out some of the positive with some drawbacks, but you've also balanced it with "...if the foe is taken down, to gain back..."  Even the risk of sacrificing HP isn't a guarantee to take down the foe, so that's a gamble too.

If you were to remove any of the drawbacks, then the weapons would go to Most Potent easily.

Ideally, I'd like to have weapons that are Potent tending toward Most Potent.

Have you assigned a weapon level to them?

I have no idea how this works, or what's its use! :p

When weapons are created or imbued, they take on the level of the creator, or crafting process, or the spells embedded.  If the weapon needs to face a Breakage Factor, or the target gets to resist a spell or damage, the level of the weapon needs to be used.

To move the weapons towards Most Potent, remove the drawbacks and have all positive effects.  I would say they were Most Potent.  Just my thoughts.

[mrfantastic]

So, "Sublime Genius" is a spear in white alloy (+15 OB), giving +13% HPs to its holder (only when wielded, so its user loses 11.5% of his remaining HPs when putting it down). In combat, each round, its holder may sacrifice to it 5, 10 or 15 HPs to benefit in counterpart of a +10, +18 or +25 bonus to his OB and, if he takes his opponent down, to gain back 20 HPs.
So, how would you rank "Sublime Genius" with these figures? And what about with lower figures, +10% HPs, +10 / 15 / 20 to OB, and +15 HPs back, and with higher figures, +15%, +10 / 20 / 30 to OB, and +30 HPs?

(my opinion power: most potent my adjustement : 10% hp increase of current hits (more simple with math) when owner put it down decrease 10% hp of remaining hits can never drop below 1 in this way, in combat each round may sacrifice 5 hp (+10 ob) or 15 hp (30 ob) once a round each if he takes his enemy down (0 hits or death by critical) he gain back 10 hp or 30 hp in  base wich attack he used for that enemy (if used both on that enemy just regain the hp from attack that killed the enemy or 10 or 30 not 40) and hp gained in this way can never exced the total maximum.

Its counterpart, "Innate Genius" is a bardiche in ithilnaur (+25 OB).  In combat, each round, its holder may sacrifice to it 25 or 50 HPs to benefit in counterpart of a x2 or x3 damage multiplier and, if he takes his opponent down, to gain back 30 or 60 HPs.
As previously, how would you rank "Innate Genius" with such figures? And what about with different figures, such as 20 / 40 HPs to gain back 25 / 50 HPs, or 30 / 60 HPs to gain back 40 / 75 HPs?

power: potent
adjustement 20hp (x2 damage) 30 hp (x3 damage) the damage multiplier last for 1 attack it is possible to expend more stuck of hp for multiple attack (ex expend 40 hp make 2 attack at x2 damage)  if he takes his enemy down (0 hits or death by critical) he gain back 20 hp or 30 hp in  base wich attack he used for that enemy (in the ex. if he kill the enemy with second attack he regain 20 hp not 40) and hp gained in this way can never exced the total maximum.

dont blame at me lol is just my point of view

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

Thank you all for your comments.
In the end, I made the spear a +15 weapon, adding +13% hit points when wielded (and removing 11.5% when put down), and granting (for one round) either +10, +18 or +25 to OB when 5, 10 or 15 hit points are sacrificed but giving back 25 hit points if the opponent is taken down the same round, which is pretty much the original idea.
As for the berdiche, I made it a +25 weapon, adding 42 hit points when wielded (and only subtracting any hit point exceeding the maximum hit points, to a maximum of 42, when put down), and granting (for one round) either a x1.5 or x2.5 damage when 20 or 40 hit points are sacrificed but giving back 60 hit points if the opponent is taken down the same round.