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Offline Malim

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RM2 Spell questions
« on: November 17, 2020, 02:12:54 PM »
So the spell law rules state that a spell cost 75% activity to cast, even a * spell.
So how does i.e. Paladin Strike spells work compared to a combat spell from beastmaster
Sir Elor Blacke knight of Helyssa, Kytari Fighter lvl 25 (RM2)
Malim Naruum, Yinka Lord Bashkor lvl 27  (RM2)

Offline Hurin

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Re: RM2 Spell questions
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2020, 02:47:13 PM »
They still follow the same rules.

Take the Paladin 'Attack' spells on Arms Way (RMCompanion II). These are spells that buff an attack from +5 to +150. They still cost 75% activity, so these are spells that you cast in one round to buff your attack in the following round (note that the spell's duration is '1 round', but the spell description specifies the spell takes effect in the round after you cast it). You can't attack in the round you cast them.

Same goes for Beastmaster 'Combat' spells from Combat Enhancement (RMCompanion II). They cost 75% activity in the round you cast them, so you can't cast in that round. But depending on your level, they will last for later rounds (duration is 1 round/level).

So in general these spells were meant to be buffs you cast before attacking rather than buffs you cast while attacking.

RMSS I think tried to modify some of these to make them more useful to be cast while attacking. Instant spells in RMSS had been reduced IIRC to 10% activity, but that still meant they gave a -10 to attacks, so the bonuses to OB had to be modified to account for that. So the Paladin OB buff had to be improved to +15, to counter the -10 and still give a bonus.

RMU has done a better job of making these buffs castable while attacking by reducing the activity cost to 0%, so you can cast them in combat and without doing the mental gymnastics of adding 15 then subtracting 10.

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Offline Malim

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Re: RM2 Spell questions
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2020, 03:17:44 PM »
That all makes sense actually.

Now to Spell Users Companion page 66 Martial mastery.
How will that practical work in a combat situation?
Sir Elor Blacke knight of Helyssa, Kytari Fighter lvl 25 (RM2)
Malim Naruum, Yinka Lord Bashkor lvl 27  (RM2)

Offline Hurin

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Re: RM2 Spell questions
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2020, 07:36:52 PM »
That all makes sense actually.

That does occasionally happen sometimes!

Quote
Now to Spell Users Companion page 66 Martial mastery.
How will that practical work in a combat situation?

Most of the spells there seem to trigger on the caster's next attack, so I think those are again spells that you cast one round to gain the benefit in the next round.

I'm not quite sure what to make of the spells that have '--' for duration. These seem rather problematic.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

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Offline Malim

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Re: RM2 Spell questions
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2020, 04:42:51 AM »
Yes and it seems to me like there are spells in the RoCo, that are made without fully thinking about core Spell law rules.
But to me it makes little sense, that you use one full round to cast a spell, to get an extra crit next round. Then most of thoose spells are one trick pony spells in an combat!
Sir Elor Blacke knight of Helyssa, Kytari Fighter lvl 25 (RM2)
Malim Naruum, Yinka Lord Bashkor lvl 27  (RM2)

Offline Hurin

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Re: RM2 Spell questions
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2020, 08:54:04 AM »
Yes and it seems to me like there are spells in the RoCo, that are made without fully thinking about core Spell law rules.

I would not be surprised if there are. Already by Companion I, people were introducing new initiative systems, and some were erroneously treating Instantaneous actions as effectively costing much less activity (e.g. in one you could cast several spells in a single round, so long as each was separated by 50 initiative points). I think it was a problem with a poorly chosen word: 'Instantaneous' just carries the connotation of taking no time/activity in English. And that's not what 'Instantaneous' meant. It really meant 'takes no prep rounds'. So something like 'No prep' spells would have been more accurate. Even just 'Swift' would have at least made clear that they still take some activity.

Quote
But to me it makes little sense, that you use one full round to cast a spell, to get an extra crit next round. Then most of thoose spells are one trick pony spells in an combat!

Yes, and that is why I prefer the way RMU is doing it. RMU makes them truly take no activity (just your instantaneous action for the turn), so you can use them easily in combat.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Hurin

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Re: RM2 Spell questions
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2020, 10:47:37 AM »
I tried again but I just can't make four spells (the level 2, 3, 11, and 30 spells) from Martial Mastery in the Spell User's Companion make any sense according to the RM2 RAW. Their duration is '--', which makes them unlike almost all other spells on the list. The level 1 spell, which also has a duration '--', could still be useful since it allows you to magically stand up. But the other four spells seem to assume that you will be attacking in the same round as you cast the spell, and that is not allowed in the RM2 RAW (unless I guess you choose the optional rule in Spell Law to make Instantaneous spells cost 50% activity in the round they are cast, but even then, that would mean that all these attacks are at -50).

What I suspect is that the writer of this section was using one of the variant initiative systems in the Companions. The one explained in RMCompanion I for example lets casters cast multiple Instant spells per round. According to the core RAW, though, these spells would not function effectively. I would change the duration of those four spells to be the same as the other (and fully functional) spells on the list: namely, to have a duration of 'varies', with the text of the spell specifying that it applies to the caster's next attack.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline markc

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Re: RM2 Spell questions
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2020, 01:20:00 PM »
RoCo Note:
1) The info in the RoCo's was written and submitted by fans with some general editing and formatting.
2) When looking at the SUC you may need to go back to the RoCo book itself to see notes from the original article's author.
3) Watch out for power creep and specific spell lists can be very unbalancing.


RM2 Spell Basic Note:
1) In general RMSS SL cleaned up a lot of the lists and ideas presented in various RM2 spells, if you have the RMSS SL it s a good idea to find something close to it and then backwards compatibility it to RM2. 


SUC pg 66:
I did a very quick look at list.
1) In general there are quite a few spells on the list that I saw were potential problems in many games and the list should probably be rewritten for most RM2 games and since IIRC RMC did some balancing of rules for any RMC game.
2) Look to other list that have been re-balanced for ideas on what to do.


MDC     
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Offline Hurin

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Re: RM2 Spell questions
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2020, 02:00:31 PM »
That helps a lot -- thanks Mark!
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline markc

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Re: RM2 Spell questions
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2020, 02:53:30 PM »
From past discussions, IIRC in the old days of the RoCo's the idea was to provide fans a way to get material out to the general community (and sell product) and material was simply put into a book form.


One thing to remember just like now people want to see their material published and thus can take some short cuts on long term playability and balance vs other professions to get material published.


Also now just like then your group is probably different then other groups (and play styles) and thus something that works well in your group may not in other groups and or settings.


RM2 GMs and RMSS Spell Law:
Quite a few RM2 GM's I know use RMSS SL as it was redone from the RM2 lists but every spell list was not redone and that could be a problem, especially with the more powerful professions and lists.
Also depending on what initiative system you use it can make some spells more powerful in one system then in others, this can often be fixed with house rules.


MDC 


Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
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Offline markc

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Re: RM2 Spell questions
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2020, 07:12:23 PM »
One that I see a big problem with is the disarm spell (I think rank 4, IIRC) if put into an item, or in general it would be problematic in most RM games as it is a simple save or lose your weapon.


MDC 
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Offline markc

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Re: RM2 Spell questions
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2020, 02:06:02 PM »
I did another quick look last night at the list in the SUC,


1) Strange that this list seems to have a large number of spells that say only one spell of this type can be active at a time. To me it seems to be a balancing mechanism.
Note: I looked at the RMSS Armsmaster lists Armor Mastery as it jumped out at me as also having this, one spell at one time idea, but it was much more limited in nature and referred to changing cloths into providing armor AT's. (Also a potential magic item problem in many games)


2) Some of the spells seem like artifact abilities to me for fairly low level spells for RM2, ie weapon used MA attack later to become kata IIRC and Armor does not affect AD skill use.


3) To me it seems like the idea was for the caster to cast the spells when in combat with a combatant but if the Monk was to move to another combatant then they would have to cast the spell again.


Rewriting: IMHO the list needs a lot of work in the terms updating to fit a core idea of list, new combat system(s) and rebalancing in terms of other spell lists.
One thing I think would be a huge mistake would be to simply assign a new duration to spells and call it good to be put into play....unless your RM2 game is all RM2 power professions and you want a Monk to have some more power to compete in that area.


MDC     
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
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Offline Majyk

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Re: RM2 Spell questions
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2020, 07:27:49 PM »
Yup.

...and I wouldn’t make it “next attack”, Hurin, or you’d have PCs not slowing down their teams to 10% movement due to prep(90%) where, every battle, would start with such an attack on Combat Turn (1).

Offline Hurin

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Re: RM2 Spell questions
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2020, 10:02:24 PM »
Yup.

...and I wouldn’t make it “next attack”, Hurin, or you’d have PCs not slowing down their teams to 10% movement due to prep(90%) where, every battle, would start with such an attack on Combat Turn (1).

Right, I can see how that would be a problem. There are some spells that specify they take effect in the next round, so maybe a duration of '1 round' and the spell description specifies that is the round after the spell is cast?
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline mrfantastic

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Re: RM2 Spell questions
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2021, 08:10:01 AM »
* spells take 50% to cast

Offline Hurin

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Re: RM2 Spell questions
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2021, 11:48:05 AM »
* spells take 50% to cast

The default rule is that they take 75% (Spell Law, red band edition, p. 12, section 6.2, 'Time Required to Cast a Spell'), but there is an option within that same section of text to reduce it to 50%.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: RM2 Spell questions
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2021, 03:15:17 AM »
The default rule is that they take 75% (Spell Law, red band edition, p. 12, section 6.2, 'Time Required to Cast a Spell'), but there is an option within that same section of text to reduce it to 50%.
Only for instantaneous spells, IIRC.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: RM2 Spell questions
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2021, 08:46:39 AM »
The default rule is that they take 75% (Spell Law, red band edition, p. 12, section 6.2, 'Time Required to Cast a Spell'), but there is an option within that same section of text to reduce it to 50%.
Only for instantaneous spells, IIRC.

Yes, the option only applies to Instantaneous spells; normal spells always require 75% activity.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Sokrates

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Re: RM2 Spell questions
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2021, 09:51:50 AM »
So how does i.e. Paladin Strike spells work compared to a combat spell from beastmaster

Hi,

we never played it that way but always took the rule from some later Companion, that an instant spell, the ones with (*) , cost 10% action.

That allows all those classes with +Attack spells to basically use it every round (and drain power points in no time).

Note however, that (even if hasted), you can only cast one spell per round. That can get tricky. If the Paladin plans to attack and uses its Strike* spell, he cannot react to a sudden attack with a bladeturn/deflection (both instant too) . If he just announces a normal swing, he could do that.

It is possible to prepare another spell (90 % action) and cast an instant spell (often used for shield or bladeturn by our casters to survive till they finally get of the fire bolt).

We think, because it fits so neatly, it was exactly meant like that.

The original arms law, spell law are usually a little confusing, because they somehow sweat the original idea to be an addition to another RPG system (like AD&D) and not an own system. It gets a little better with the reworked RMC2 rules but a look into RMSS often helps to understand the ideas from my point of view.

Anyway RM was never used to be a fixed ruleset. Its a toolbox, make your own RPG with it.

The idea of a Paladin standing in front row holding off attacking enemys on weapon's point and then PAUSING one round (100% death penalty because he has no parry)  to cast an instant spell never made any sense to us.

Offline Sokrates

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Re: RM2 Spell questions
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2021, 09:53:43 AM »
* spells take 50% to cast

The default rule is that they take 75% (Spell Law, red band edition, p. 12, section 6.2, 'Time Required to Cast a Spell'), but there is an option within that same section of text to reduce it to 50%.

Yes and some very useful optional rule reduces instant spells to a 10% action which makes total sense to us.