Topic: Melee Scuffle

[Prince Finnion]

In the interests of balance I have a question about Melee Scuffle.  I'll outline how I am handling it and I would like any input or ideas any of you have since this is not a skill I'm very familiar with and have never used before.

The skill in AC says it takes 1/5 of your action (or 20% since ACL uses percentages).
In ACL a melee attack is 50%-100% of your action.

In order to get maximum output for both skills in 1 round the player would need to subtract 20% (or -20) from his melee attack in order to utilize the Melee Scuffle skill.

My issue is whether or not the -20 is enough.  This skill allows a chance of an unbalancing crit in addition to the melee attack results.  Plus the RR is vs the number of ranks the player has counted as levels.

I know that AC has Optional Skills but as I've already allowed Way of the Warrior and Focus I don't see how I can now disallow this skill.

If anyone has input on how to keep the skill from making the player to Over Powered I would love to hear it.

PS: I hope I got the book acronyms correct this time....

[Ginger McMurray]

I'd never seen that skill before. I agree that it's super OP. Up to 4 unbalancing criticals per round and still get a 60% attack? Three options I can think of off the top of my head:

• Ban it. "I already allowed X" is no reason to also allow Y.
• Increase the percentage. IMO it should be at least a 50% action, not 20%. That would mean it only works once per round and your attack is taking a big hit.
• Use the character's level for the RR rather than the # of ranks. A 5th level character forcing 10th level RRs is too much. It goes even higher if you're allowing half levels and/or hobbies.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

Up to 4 unbalancing criticals per round and still get a 60% attack?

Hardly. As written in the book, a character can melee scuffle before or after his normal attack. It implies he may only make one melee scuffle action if he performs a normal attack. This reasoning is enforced by the fact the text mentions he may perform two melee scuffle actions if used with weapon brawling and up to four melee scuffle actions if he performs no other actions.
Anyway, I use the skill, with pretty much all fighting class characters having developed it and it's hardly OP. First, because it's a still a skill one has to develop. Second because with "pretty much all fighting class characters having developed it", it balances itself. That being said, I have to admit I put two restrictions:
1) One may only perform a melee scuffle action on an opponent of the same size category (no, a human being cannot hope "push around, trip and throw" a dragon!), with non-bipedal giving a penalty to boot (because a quadruped is harder to "push around, trip and throw" and the skill was obviously thought for humanoids fighting each others),
2) Success is determined by comparing the melee scuffle roll (because if only the ranks are used, why even roll the skill?) of the attacker to a "pure" weapon roll ("pure" as in "no weapon bonus") for the defender so that highly skilled (in their own weapon) characters are harder to affect through a "melee scuffle" action.

[Prince Finnion]

I have to admit I put two restrictions:
1) One may only perform a melee scuffle action on an opponent of the same size category (no, a human being cannot hope "push around, trip and throw" a dragon!), with non-bipedal giving a penalty to boot (because a quadruped is harder to "push around, trip and throw" and the skill was obviously thought for humanoids fighting each others),
2) Success is determined by comparing the melee scuffle roll (because if only the ranks are used, why even roll the skill?) of the attacker to a "pure" weapon roll ("pure" as in "no weapon bonus") for the defender so that highly skilled (in their own weapon) characters are harder to affect through a "melee scuffle" action.
[/quote]

I will definitely use suggestion 1.
With Suggestion 2, can you give an example?  Or is it just Melee Scuffle as an attack vs the opponent's DB?

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

I will definitely use suggestion 1.

Against non-bipedal, I suggest a modifier of 20 per additional pair of legs, so a quadrupedal would give a penalty of 20, an insect of 40, an arachnid of 60, etc.

With Suggestion 2, can you give an example?

I surely can, and I even may. So, no, not vs. the DB. It's a skill vs. skill roll, with the attacker rolling his Melee Scuffle skill (as he would) but the defender rolling, using his "pure" melee weapon skill (and by "pure", I mean without the weapon bonus, or any combat-relevant bonus to OB) instead of making a RR. Let's say I've always hated how many skills are used by rolling the skill, yet the roll itself doesn't really matter as long as it succeeds, making it irrelevant to have a skill bonus higher than 100 (well, you may say it's to offset any potential penalty but...)