Topic: Elemental Spell lists - Elemental Companion

[Spectre771]

I'm throwing this idea out here first as a test bed before I present it to my groups.

Within the Elemental Companion, there are several schools of thought and several spell list options for a GM to choose.  I'm interested in what experienced players and GMs think about the options and what new players to RM and/or EC would think or what they would enjoy.  The overall goal is always to have the game mechanics fun and interesting.

So here are the facts and the options:

There are several elements that exist in the world and of varying complexities.  Basic (heat, cold, air, etc.), compound (electricity, gravity, inertia, etc.) complex (plasma, chaos, etc.), super complex (Time, aether, nether, etc.)  The GM can limit the elements that are available in the game, which I have done.  Only up to and including compound elements have been 'discovered' thus far.

Where it gets fun is in the spell list acquisition and how they relate to the elements.

Spell user chooses an element as his primary focus and learns a spell list. 

1 - Does that list apply to every element (available in the game)?
2 - Does that list apply only to the element the spell user has chosen as his primary element?
3- Does that list apply to every element but grants a bonus for the spell user's chosen primary element?
4 - Does the spell user have to learn the same list repeatedly for each element he wants to manipulate, but only receiving a bonus when using his primary element?

These are options presented in the book and now that my players are getting more spell lists, I have to weigh game balance and fun.

Option 1 is the equivalent of learning 22 spell lists for the price of one.  I believe there are 22 total elements.

Option 2 is the standard spell list acquisition but arguments can be made that an elemental mage is familiar with other elements and should have a basic understanding the elements although he has chosen to specialize in one. 

Option 3 affords the most power to a mage but here, power creep can be huge.  Consider that the level 1 mage as of now summons an electricity wispling that gets 4 attacks per round.  In one round, he does 4 attacks, the fighter does 1 attack.  In round 2, the mage has made 8 attacks to the fighter's 2 attacks.  So on and so on.

Option 4 is the most prohibitive and will suck up DPs.

So the questions are where do the experienced players and the new players feel the balance will be?  If a spell caster is able to arbitrarily choose an elemental spell best to counter each situation, it will be too easy for him or the challenges will be too hard for the other players.  Each element has a counter-element to which it does slaying crits.  Regardless of the elemental baddie I send at the party, the spell user can just summon the slaying-antithesis of that element.

[Majyk]

Old school GM/crunchy Player that thinks the RM2 EC was the best book ever written!
Great cover, too!

Option 4.
Vanilla Magicians have to do it with their lists in order to gain access to the differing elemental bolt and ball spells.
So should Elementalists.
Especially, if using the rules for PEM where it’s Secondary damage.

PS> Limit Summons to 1/PC.  Summon a second being and lose the first. 
Also, Summons cannot, themselves, summon.
It’ll save your game headaches and combat will never slow down to a crawl, polluted by multiple Summoned creatures taking away the spotlight from t’other players waiting for their turns...

[Spectre771]

Old school GM/crunchy Player that thinks the RM2 EC was the best book ever written!
Great cover, too!

Hear hear!  Until this past summer, it was the only magic allowed in-game.  I've since allowed Alchemy Companion.  I've always loved the way the elements were handled and explained.  The PEM is a great feature the players haven't yet experienced in depth.  They are still fighting low level entities that do not have PEM.

Option 4.
Vanilla Magicians have to do it with their lists in order to gain access to the differing elemental bolt and ball spells.

The argument here is, especially if using PEM, is that all elements are derived from this PEM.  Just as an arcanist or archmage only sees raw magical energy to be manipulated, so does the elementalist when dealing with elemental essence.  The Magician isn't summoning raw PEM fireballs, he's summoning normal fire and normal lightning.

I'm all for limiting the spell lists.  The mages at higher levels will have too much power at their command.  As I mentioned earlier, the lightning wispling gets 4 attacks per round with 90DB.  It only has 10HP, but no one is going to hit it with a 90DB.

Definitely only 1 summoned creature at a time.  I don't think there are any summoned elementals that have spell lists.  They have elemental attacks "...as spell listed in..." a spell list, but no PP.

@Majyk Are you replying more as a GM or as a player to the question?  Just so I can keep the responses in perspective.  And EC is my favorite book, hands down.

[brole]

This is one I’ve been looking at lately during my musings to GM a RM2 based PBEM.
I’ve had the EC book for ages but never actually used the material as a player nor GM.
Nevertheless, I’ve read the material carefully comparing to the other RM2 material and come up with the following for handling elements and the EC.

The magical elements form the building blocks of the flows of essence.
Spells that utilize the elements work by extracting the purified PEM from the flows of essence.

Therefore, all spell users including those from EC belong to the usual RM2 realms.

There are elemental generalists and elemental specialists.

Elemental Specialists are the professions in the Elemental Companion, and they must choose 1 primary element. This element determines the element used in their spell lists. They cannot use any other elemental spells of a differing element. They get the bonus as described for their profession for using their primary element. I’ve scrapped the secondary element. The following are restricted spell lists to keep them within the reach of Elemental Specialists only:

ELEMENTAL GLYPHS. Removed as Open List, now Base List only.
GREATER ELEMENTAL AREA ATTACK.  Removed as Closed List, now Base List only.
GREATER ELEMENTAL ATTACK. Removed as Closed List, now Base List only.
GREATER ELEMENTAL NON-MOBILE BARRIERS. Removed as Closed List, now Base List only.

Elemental Generalists choose an element if they are to use spells from EC. This is their primary element and they can’t use other elements in regard to spells from EC.
Elemental Generalists are any other professions that use elemental spells not from EC and can thus use a variety of elements. Examples:
Magician – Earth, Fire, Water Law etc…
Forcemage – Gravity Law
Elementalist – Ice, Fire Forms etc… (I’ve altered this profession giving them Elements Master as a base pick).
Shadowmage – Dark, Cold, Aether elements (see list Shadow Law).
Chaotic Lord – I’ve swapped out some of the darkness spell lists for EC spell lists with the Chaotic Lord having the primary element of chaos. Chaos Mastery scrapped, as described it does not behave as PEM.
Astral Traveller – Interact with various elements, although if they choose a primary element to access spells from EC they can no longer interact with other elements nor travel to the other elemental planes.

PEM Poisoning – I’m considering there is a chance of the character failing RR that they become a cross-breed elemental creature having incorporated the PEM into their body. Maybe this could be a possible result of ESF casting an elemental spell as well?

[Nightblade42]

Another long time RM2 GM who loves EC.  I agree, option # 4 is the way to go.  That's how we always played things.  The exceptions were the Hybrid Elementalists who could choose 2 elements to draw their power from.  I agree that if you are going this route, you need to use the PEM rules.  But then, i just love the PEM rules to begin with.  They make Elemental creatures that much more deadly - especially Dragons.

Nightblade ->--

[Hurin]

I might as well join the love-fest for the EC too. As a RM2 GM and player, I still love the EC. Gravity bolts for the win!

[Spectre771]

Great responses all.  When I started playing RM way back in college.. (err.. like last year  )  Back in those days, the spell users had access to all elements, but received the bonus to their primary.  I don't recall if there was a negative to using a non-primary element but I suppose it was possible for game balance. 

Another long time RM2 GM who loves EC.  I agree, option # 4 is the way to go.  That's how we always played things.  The exceptions were the Hybrid Elementalists who could choose 2 elements to draw their power from. 

The more input I get from other players and GMs, it seems Option 4 makes the most sense.  Familiarity with PEM and learning to manipulate a specific element are two very different things.  Anyone who is in the medical field can attest to this.  Emergency medical treatment of infants and toddlers is vastly different than that of adults.  It's not simply lowering the dosage by a percentage and applying.  They are two very different organisms even though they are still humans.  Additionally, my friend is a vet and while there are similar medications used in the treatment of animals and humans, the application is vastly different.

I would love to get more feedback, experience, thoughts on the topic.  It seems EC has a bigger following than you folks let on!  Where have you all been hiding?

They make Elemental creatures that much more deadly - especially Dragons.

Nightblade ->--

Yes!  A couple of non-magical and low-magical items have been dissolved inside a drake's body from an unfortunate crit when "...the weapon gets stuck inside foe."  I've also used the gradual poisoning of the surrounding land due to an ancient drake asleep in the Dragonback Mountains.  The facts are so old, they have faded into myth and legend.  No one realizes there is actually a drake slumbering under the mountain.  In the region, there is a higher instance of heat-based elemental creatures and encounters but no one knows why.

I might as well join the love-fest for the EC too. As a RM2 GM and player, I still love the EC. Gravity bolts for the win!

Vibration crits for the kill!  The party will be encountering a Gravity Zephyr Hound in the next session.  I need something invisible to track them.  It will keep things interesting for them too.

[Nightblade42]

Great responses all.  When I started playing RM way back in college.. (err.. like last year  )  Back in those days, the spell users had access to all elements, but received the bonus to their primary.  I don't recall if there was a negative to using a non-primary element but I suppose it was possible for game balance. 

Another long time RM2 GM who loves EC.  I agree, option # 4 is the way to go.  That's how we always played things.  The exceptions were the Hybrid Elementalists who could choose 2 elements to draw their power from. 

The more input I get from other players and GMs, it seems Option 4 makes the most sense.  Familiarity with PEM and learning to manipulate a specific element are two very different things.  Anyone who is in the medical field can attest to this.  Emergency medical treatment of infants and toddlers is vastly different than that of adults.  It's not simply lowering the dosage by a percentage and applying.  They are two very different organisms even though they are still humans.  Additionally, my friend is a vet and while there are similar medications used in the treatment of animals and humans, the application is vastly different.

That's an excellent analogy.  Because a Mage has trained to use Elemental Fire doesn't mean he has the skills or the knowledge to use Elemental Chaos.

I would love to get more feedback, experience, thoughts on the topic.  It seems EC has a bigger following than you folks let on!  Where have you all been hiding?

I've been here all along, loving Vibration Drakes & creating Chaos balls that keep expanding & devouring all of matter before them 

They make Elemental creatures that much more deadly - especially Dragons.

Nightblade ->--

Yes!  A couple of non-magical and low-magical items have been dissolved inside a drake's body from an unfortunate crit when "...the weapon gets stuck inside foe."  I've also used the gradual poisoning of the surrounding land due to an ancient drake asleep in the Dragonback Mountains.  The facts are so old, they have faded into myth and legend.  No one realizes there is actually a drake slumbering under the mountain.  In the region, there is a higher instance of heat-based elemental creatures and encounters but no one knows why.

Love it!

I might as well join the love-fest for the EC too. As a RM2 GM and player, I still love the EC. Gravity bolts for the win!

Vibration crits for the kill!  The party will be encountering a Gravity Zephyr Hound in the next session.  I need something invisible to track them.  It will keep things interesting for them too.

You'll have to tell us how that goes, Spectre!

Nightblade ->--

[Spectre771]

You'll have to tell us how that goes, Spectre!

Nightblade ->--

Next session is Feb 2nd! 

[Nightblade42]

I can' wait. 

Nightblade ->--