Author Topic: Sea Law & War Law  (Read 2520 times)

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Offline Nightblade42

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Sea Law & War Law
« on: March 07, 2018, 09:44:19 PM »
These are two ICE products that I own & have used in various ways over the years.  I wondering, has anyone else used them & in what ways?  Have you done just one-off battles (either mass combat or sea battles) or have you run any campaigns built around these products?  If so, tell me your experiences.

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Offline Hurin

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Re: Sea Law & War Law
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2018, 09:54:33 PM »
I loved -- loved -- War Law, but then again I liked wargames. I think it was a bit too wargamey for my group when I tried to do a kind of 'Black Company' style campaign, where they created their own army. I think the thing that made it hard was that with the optional rules I chose, the unit sizes changed (e.g. a unit of 50 cavalry took many more hexes than a unit of 50 infantry), so you couldn't really represent the battle with just one unit per hex. So I ended up drawing each unit by hand with a marker; and every time it moved or changed formation, I had to draw it out again.

I would really like to try using it again with my present group though. There was so much good stuff in it!

I've heard good things about Sea Law, and would like to try a buccaneer/pirate campaign with it too.
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Offline Nightblade42

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Re: Sea Law & War Law
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2018, 10:38:42 PM »
That's awesome Hurin!  8)

Back in the day, my friends & I played a lot of Warhammer & Warhammer 40K for our Wargames, but we played RM2 for our roleplaying.  I bought WL to sort of bridge the gap between RM2 & wargaming.  We tried a few simple battles, but my friends preferred the Warhammer mechanics. Tho, they really appreciated how their RM2 PCs could be integrated in WL.

Otherwise I've used WL & SeL in my writing (along with Armoured Assault & Starstrike).  I've always wanted to find a way to use all four products together, but there seems to be big differences between the SM2 products & their RM2 "counterparts".  I had a WL/SeL campaign based on the Dæmon Wars on my World of Nytheun.  The campaign was called Ekotai's March & chronicles King Ekotai's battle against the Nochtiachi forces (including their infamous Cambion Soldiers) and was a series of progressively bigger battles from a surprise attack on a forward base to the final assault on the Nochtiachi capital.  I only got around to fully developing the first battle (The Battle Of Crystal Falls Pass), but one day I hope to develop the rest - including the sea battle in the bay of Noch Atizith which happens just before the Siege of Noch Atizith.  If anyone is interested in the Battle Of Crystal Falls Pass, you can read the article I wrote on my Scribd page (follow link).

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Offline Hurin

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Re: Sea Law & War Law
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2018, 11:03:04 PM »
I honestly never imagined anyone would have made a War Law adventure module. That is awesome!

I too loved the way Star Strike, Armored Assault, and SM2 all fit together. If you've never read the Rolemaster campaign setting Darkspace, I highly recommend it. It was written by the great Monte Cook and combines Fantasy and Sci-Fi in quite a unique way.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Nightblade42

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Re: Sea Law & War Law
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2018, 11:14:22 PM »
Love Darkspace - softech & biocrytal add an interesting twist to any campaign. I've adopted some of it for my Nytheun stories - tho it is hidden technology not generally known by most of the inhabitants.

I really should get around to adding more of those WL campaign modules…

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Offline Malim

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Re: Sea Law & War Law
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2018, 01:18:58 AM »
We used war law many years ago.
But then we actually used Warhammer fantasy battle for our battles! We made a conversion table for it. it worked out very well!
And battles was fast!

We later did the same for our GURPS future setting, where we used WH40K for battles!
Sir Elor Blacke knight of Helyssa, Kytari Fighter lvl 25 (RM2)
Malim Naruum, Yinka Lord Bashkor lvl 27  (RM2)

Offline Spectre771

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Re: Sea Law & War Law
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2018, 09:48:16 AM »
War Law is the only missing book from my RM2 collection.  Sea Law was the last purchase I made and that was this past summer.  It's full of awesome info and stats.  It came in very handy for the weekend campaign I ran.  There were a couple sea travels sections and it was nice to have "fact", or at least something concrete to base my narrative from and it gave much more atmosphere and feel to the sea section.  In the past, the sea portions of any campaign I had played or GM'd were really basic and bland with little detail.  Where the sea portions used to be glazed over and quickly worked through, they now have a nice sea-feel to them and the additional details and pics are awesome.
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Offline Grinnen Baeritt

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Re: Sea Law & War Law
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2018, 04:58:00 PM »
I've both, but have converted War Law into a more RMSS-like format, and used that far more than the original. The way I've done it, it's adaptable for all RM versions and as long as you don't mix units made up for different systems in the same game works well. Once the dust settles on RMU I'm sure it can be used for that too (The major differences are actually those creating the stats for unit members.. not the units).

As for Sea law, I've never really used it. I'd found using Run out the Guns was good enough with a one vs one battle... but used a set of Avalon Hills "Wooden Ships & Iron Men" to handle the large multi-ship battles. 

Offline Nightblade42

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Re: Sea Law & War Law
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2018, 07:41:04 PM »
We used war law many years ago.
But then we actually used Warhammer fantasy battle for our battles! We made a conversion table for it. it worked out very well!
And battles was fast!

We later did the same for our GURPS future setting, where we used WH40K for battles!

Warhammer definately has a simple mass combat system & collecting/painting the minatures was a hobby all in itself.  I know ICE had their Metal Express line & even MERP miniatures back in the day, but they never really seemed to have taken off like Games Workshop did.  Mind you, having amazing pictures of minautres in battle I think really helped Games Workshop - as well as releasing Minature specific suppliments (Painting & Modelling tutorials).  It really supported the hobby. I mean, I think those pictures were the only reason I ever bought White Dwarf magazine…

I wonder if the current ICE would ever conisder something similar as a new line of products & revenue stream?

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Offline Nightblade42

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Re: Sea Law & War Law
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2018, 07:45:17 PM »
War Law is the only missing book from my RM2 collection.  Sea Law was the last purchase I made and that was this past summer.  It's full of awesome info and stats.  It came in very handy for the weekend campaign I ran.  There were a couple sea travels sections and it was nice to have "fact", or at least something concrete to base my narrative from and it gave much more atmosphere and feel to the sea section.  In the past, the sea portions of any campaign I had played or GM'd were really basic and bland with little detail.  Where the sea portions used to be glazed over and quickly worked through, they now have a nice sea-feel to them and the additional details and pics are awesome.

I haven't delved too far into Sea Law.  I did one battle for one of my stories (Death Of A Duke) where the Archduke of Ravenstone's flagship is attacked by Dark Elvan raiders & their Shape-Changing Admiral (she changes into a Sea Drake).  I really want to do a larger Sea Battle based around my Ekotai's March WL Campaign.  I'm glad to hear that Sea Law provided your campaign with a lot more realism.  That's promising for some of my other plans for the supplement.

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Offline Nightblade42

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Re: Sea Law & War Law
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2018, 07:49:35 PM »
I've both, but have converted War Law into a more RMSS-like format, and used that far more than the original. The way I've done it, it's adaptable for all RM versions and as long as you don't mix units made up for different systems in the same game works well. Once the dust settles on RMU I'm sure it can be used for that too (The major differences are actually those creating the stats for unit members.. not the units).

I'd be interested in seeing that.  I use a bastardized RM2/RMSS frankenstein, so seeing how you've addapted WL to RMSS really intrigues me.  Would you be interested in sharing, maybe by posting it in the Vault?

Quote
As for Sea law, I've never really used it. I'd found using Run out the Guns was good enough with a one vs one battle... but used a set of Avalon Hills "Wooden Ships & Iron Men" to handle the large multi-ship battles.

RotG is one book I've never gotten my hands on.  Wish I had it (not only to complete my RM collection but to read up on the mechanics & campaign ideas within).

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Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: Sea Law & War Law
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2018, 08:21:55 PM »
The main point behind Sea Law, frankly, was to give GMs some tools to use if they wanted to add sea-based adventures to their gaming "tool kit." As Spectre pointed out it can be handy to have elements other than naval combat to add in when adventuring, and letting characters captain ships opens up a whole new adventuring world. That includes both the voyages to new islands and continents as well as the possibilities those new lands hold. Glad to hear some people found it useful!
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Offline Nightblade42

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Re: Sea Law & War Law
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2018, 09:26:29 PM »
The main point behind Sea Law, frankly, was to give GMs some tools to use if they wanted to add sea-based adventures to their gaming "tool kit." As Spectre pointed out it can be handy to have elements other than naval combat to add in when adventuring, and letting characters captain ships opens up a whole new adventuring world. That includes both the voyages to new islands and continents as well as the possibilities those new lands hold. Glad to hear some people found it useful!.

I agree.  There's a lot of information in Sea Law - & you're right, if you use just bits & pieces you can add a lot to your game. 

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Offline Nightblade42

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Re: Sea Law & War Law
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2018, 09:30:34 PM »
I am currently working on putting together a Battle Report for the sea battle that happens just before the Siege of Noch Atiatoch, the next battle in Ekotai's March - my WL campaign set on my world of Nytheun.  I will post it on my Scribd page when it is complete.  I might post some teasers here as I write them, so stay tuned.

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Offline Nightblade42

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Re: Sea Law & War Law
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2018, 09:29:12 PM »
I started a thread in the Fan Created Worlds forum for my Ekotai's March WL Campaign.  I have posted the first part of The Siege of Noch Atiazith - the battle that incorporates both WL's siege mechanics as well as a Sea Law battle.

Here is the link: http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=18534.0

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Offline Duette-1

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Re: Sea Law & War Law
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2018, 05:32:25 AM »
A lot of systems like d6 and pendragon  have good first person large battle and craft battle mechanics focusing in the individual with the battle around them. I started to adapt some of starstrike to do this (skill vs skill for advantagous position that sort of thing) but anyone know of any preset or house rules for this that they use?

Offline Nightblade42

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Re: Sea Law & War Law
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2018, 09:24:37 PM »
Sorry, I don't know of any.  Perhaps others on the forum might be familiar with those types of rules.

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Offline Grinnen Baeritt

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Re: Sea Law & War Law
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2018, 01:33:52 AM »
The rules I've been working on for years had a system where an Individual character within a unit (as a member of rank and file) could participate as per a "normal" character. The unit & formation their unit were in determined any additional positional modifiers. This would simply be an addition (or subtraction) to their OB/DB. When melee battle was joined then the individual characters would be "matched off" against opponents... which also had bonuses/penalties due to the formation their unit was in.

The size of a unit (and the size of it's constituent members/weapon) and formation determined the total number of attacks it could make against an opposing unit. This was important because it also determined the number of opponents that an individual character was likely to face based on the density of the opposing unit.

The "quality" of the actual opponents a character would face was variable based on the average "character" level of the opposing unit. The higher the "Unit level" the less variable the  "character level" of the opponent. What this meant was that low level units had the possibility of containing higher level opponents, but with a lower possibility of the character "accidently" meeting them. (Chances are these were enemy NCO's rather than rank and file). ... and high level units tended to have less variable but higher level opponents.

Within a battle, I'd rated the position of the character as a voluntary choice, though in practice it wouldn't be. Normally better, stronger opponents would be "front-line"... therefore within a unit of allied lower-level the characters would be placed at the front and vice-versa with allied higher level units. Regardless, each character had the opportunity to affect the combat, but those in the middle (or rear) had less of a chance to fully use their combat abilities (or get hurt).

With reference to the effect that individual characters might have, this would go alongside the results of the unit, with their (and their direct opponents being excluded)... and then combined again when determining morale checks and whether the unit had been pushed by, or holding or was pushing an opposing unit.     

Offline Duette-1

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Re: Sea Law & War Law
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2018, 01:18:40 PM »
Sounds like a pretty awesome model Grinnen. Ever thought of sharing it?