Topic: Target of spells aware or unaware ?

[Warl]

So, first of all... the Target is not aware of the caster casting the target. Just say their attention is focused some where else.

In any situation where the target is unaware of the spell caster casting a spell,
do you allow the character to know they were the target of a non directed, not damaging spell. For instance, A caster casts a "Calming" spell on another target, in a bar, where the discussion is getting heated and looks like it might come to blows.

Would the target know he had been targeted by a spell whether he failed his resistance roll or not?

Or, if he failed his resistance roll, would he just feel he got control of himself, and if he had made his resistance roll, would he just not know anything had happened at all?

I know how I am ruling it in my games, but how would you rule it?

[jdale]

I would generally say they are not aware of it during the spell if they failed the RR, but might realize later if their actions were uncharacteristic or atypical. In the case of Calming, if they did know during the spell, that might make them mad, which sort of defeats the purpose of the spell. If their behavior was natural, and things went ok after that, it's really human nature to believe it was their own behavior and not magic. We come up with rational but false explanations of our own behavior all the time, we actually aren't that good act figuring out our own emotional responses. Conversely, if they know a mentalist was present, and something went wrong, it would also be natural to blame the mentalist and not themself, whether that's correct or not.

If they make the RR, either they know if they make the RR by a certain amount (e.g. by at least 50), or you could alternatively give them a perception roll. The former is how the rules tend to handle it. The latter gives an advantage for someone who is highly alert (or even one who has a relevant situational awareness skill), which might be appropriate, although it's another roll.

[Spectre771]

I would generally say they are not aware of it during the spell if they failed the RR, but might realize later if their actions were uncharacteristic or atypical. In the case of Calming, if they did know during the spell, that might make them mad, which sort of defeats the purpose of the spell. If their behavior was natural, and things went ok after that, it's really human nature to believe it was their own behavior and not magic. We come up with rational but false explanations of our own behavior all the time, we actually aren't that good act figuring out our own emotional responses. Conversely, if they know a mentalist was present, and something went wrong, it would also be natural to blame the mentalist and not themself, whether that's correct or not.

If they make the RR, either they know if they make the RR by a certain amount (e.g. by at least 50), or you could alternatively give them a perception roll. The former is how the rules tend to handle it. The latter gives an advantage for someone who is highly alert (or even one who has a relevant situational awareness skill), which might be appropriate, although it's another roll.

Bravo.  Excellently worded.  I'm going to implement this into my world.  I know there are a couple of rules lawyers in the group who may try to trip me up on this.

[markc]

 I agree with JDale.
  I do not know if this will help or not but this question has come up a lot since I have been on the ICE Forums (about 97 or so). So you might want to do a search of the archives to see what others have had to say on the topic as well.
MDC

[RandalThor]

I also agree with what jdale said, with two caveats: the experience of the target of the spell and the nature of the spell.

A target that is highly experienced and has had magic cast upon them many times in the past would have a greater chance of noticing the spell.

By the nature of the spell I mean from what (who’s) spell list does it originate and what is its realm? Calm from a Mystic (mentalism) I would assume is more subtle than one from an essence list. Mystics by their very nature are about hiding and stealth, so their spells are crafted with that in mind. An essence spell, on the other hand, is likely to be cast with verbal and somatic components (chanting and waving ones hands around), so a bit less subtle, no?

No matter what, the best thing to do is to just take the situation at hand and think about all the factors and make a decision on how it is to be handled.

[Peter R]

I am in general agreement that a failed RR implies no awareness if a perception roll to see the caster failed. Even if the caster is invisible there is a chance to see the interference field.

The most common usage of this in our games has been the change lore spell to be able to later on impersonate a specific individual.

[Peter R]

We had a very similar discussion to this a while ago in the Find the caster thread http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=15197.0

[Peter R]

I also agree with what jdale said, with two caveats: the experience of the target of the spell and the nature of the spell.

A target that is highly experienced and has had magic cast upon them many times in the past would have a greater chance of noticing the spell.

I don't agree with this. The experience of the character would translate his or her level and therefore into an improved RR chance. I don't think there is a need to then double up that experience again.

[Warl]

This Happens to be nearly the way I run it as well.

If the character is unaware of the casters actions, and he has power perception, I give a power perception check to see if they feel the power being directed at them. this is modified by realm.

If they fail that or don't have Power perception, Then I give a Perception check at high difficulty to see if they discern something was out of the ordinary. Either way, if they failed their RR they have to abide by those results and act accordingly.

[markc]

That is a use of PP that I had not hear of before. I do not think that I would use it in my game unless the person had PP active at the time of casting.
MDC

[RandalThor]

As Power Perception is a skill (at least in RMSS/FRP it is, I don't know about RMU), how can it be classified as "active" or inactive? If it is a spell or something like that in RMU, obviously they would need to have cast it for it to work. But, I think it is a good way to go for RMSS/FRP and what I would be looking for in the PC or NPC that is having a subtle spell cast upon them.

From what I understand, RRs have always been the traget's aura resisting the incoming spell (which is why all utility spells automatically fail if the target is unwilling, they are not powerful enough to get through a resisting aura). That has nothing to do with perceiving a spell or not, just resisting. So, granting a high-level character, that has had lots of spells cast upon them (particularly if it had been lots of mind-affecting spells/magic) the chance to notice that feeling is not too much of a stretch.

In a way, I like it better than RRs which I have come to really dislike. The only way to keep from being turned to stone by Medusa was to not look at her face (in the eye?), and doing so made it much harder to deal with her. I prefer the roleplaying method of avoiding spell and other magical effects, not the "I rolled a 175, I resisted" with no description as to how, and likely no repercussions on doing things like attacking while not looking at your target.

[Warl]

Markc

Like Randalthor, I don't think skills are all that Active or inactive. I see such things like Muscle memory. You may be better at tumbling when you are intentionally trying to do a routine, but, if a situation arises that needs that skill, your "muscle memory" comes into play and you tumble to protect yourself from injury.

In the same way, you might be better at perceiving power use in the area when your concentrating on it, But, just like all sense, you always subconsciously sensing things around you.
Your in a conversation actively listening to one person, there is a lot of noise around you yet your mind has learned to put everything else in the background while you focus on the person talking to you. Yet, across the room, some one calls out your name. Even though your focus is on the person your listening to, you have a chance that, in that background din, you hear your name called out and it draws your attention.

this is the way I treat Power perception.

[Peter R]

There are a whole basket of skills that I get players to roll at the beginning of a session such as perception, detection skills, time and direction sense etc. Because these are unconscious actions. I don't like players getting all alert and battle ready just because the GM said make a perception roll.

If the player is people watching then they may well see the power emanating from the caster but the basic situation we were given at the start of the thread was that the caster was unnoticed.

I would still say that an unsuccessful RR would leave the target completely unaware of the spell.

I am a little less strict in the situation where the player made their RR. If I spend some time with someone who has a cold I either resist or I don't and I catch the cold. I was not aware of the moment of infection.

A tv advert tries to influence my behaviour even if I am not actively watching.  I could be reading in the room with the tv. Am I aware of the moment when the advert grabs me? I would say not.

I would say that a spell that has no effect on the target such as a detection or change lore for example would not be detected.

[jdale]

I am a little less strict in the situation where the player made their RR. If I spend some time with someone who has a cold I either resist or I don't and I catch the cold. I was not aware of the moment of infection.

You might not be aware of making the roll per se, but you certainly might be aware of that person sneezing, coughing, looking feverish, etc. The GM might not say "you are making a disease RR" but they might say the person you are interacting with looks sick.

[Marrethiel]

That is a use of PP that I had not hear of before. I do not think that I would use it in my game unless the person had PP active at the time of casting.
MDC

RM2's Spell User Companion has a section on magical flourishes that we use for this type of thing. Essentially Power Perception allows you to get a sense of power being used over space and time.
"There was a great ritual cast here centuries ago"
"You feel a tingle up your spine as magic is cast nearby."
It is a great resource and has led to more than on PC going completely mundane to avoid detection.

[RandalThor]

A tv advert tries to influence my behaviour even if I am not actively watching.  I could be reading in the room with the tv. Am I aware of the moment when the advert grabs me? I would say not.

So, you are not aware of that moment when you say to yourself "hey, I want one of those"? I seem to know when that happens.

But, we are also talking about Power, and energy even if we cannot see it, its effects may be felt (like wind, we don't see the wind itself, but we can certainly feel it pushing/pulling us). Magic is a power that can have a physical affect on us, even if it isn't the one described in the spell. Why can't it be that an individual gets goose-bumps when magic is used on them? Again, I think it boils down to the type and source of magic. If it is devised to be stealthy, then it is likely not going to be noticed if done right, otherwise it just might be felt even if it is a mental spell.

[markc]

  In all of the RM games I have played in Power Perception has been a skill that you have to say you are using to gets its benefit, ie you do not see the overlay of magical auras all of the time.
  The person who taught me RM2 decided it should even cost Power Points to use the skill and since he and his wife wrote portions of RoCo1 I assumed that to be the official ruling until I got my own set of books and also did some reading on the forums and net.



Also Rasyr (Tim from old ICE, we are now in the New ICE Company phase IMHO) said something and ruled, like the following; 

 "PP is sort of like radar in that you have to turn it on to use it".
 If you do not agree with that ruling then fine, but I think the ruling still stands until the new edition RMU comes out and even then IMHO it would stand for old editions.


MDC


I will  check the SUC rules when I have a chance.
MDC

[RandalThor]

Yeah, I have never used it that way and probably won't - I just cannot wrap my head around the idea that a skill needs to be "turned on."

[jdale]

  In all of the RM games I have played in Power Perception has been a skill that you have to say you are using to gets its benefit, ie you do not see the overlay of magical auras all of the time.

This is how we play it as well. When you are concentrating, you actually see the magical energies, in colors which correspond to the type of magic. It requires a great deal of concentration, and conversely interferes with your normal vision. If you aren't concentrating, just having the skill doesn't make any difference.

I don't see anything wrong with the other interpretation, which is more like a Situational Awareness: Magic. It's just different. Whatever suits your setting best.

[Marrethiel]

I don't see anything wrong with the other interpretation, which is more like a Situational Awareness: Magic. It's just different. Whatever suits your setting best.

which is effectivly how we do it, even though we run RM2.
Mind you, I'm not saying we use SUC correctly either