Topic: Contracting diseases in Rolemaster

[Cormac Doyle]

Someone wrote Hands of the Healer ... which was really good ... but I don't think its available any longer

[Athelstaine]

In my games i treat everyone as level 1 versus the level of the poison/disease modified by luck bonus. I use the luck stat option from one of the companions, cannot remember which though.

[jdale]

It's interesting that people pick level 1, which means poisons and diseases are effectively always higher than your level. If you treated everyone as, say, level 5, you could have weaker poisons and diseases that were easier to resist, in addition to the really dangerous ones.

[rdanhenry]

It's interesting that people pick level 1, which means poisons and diseases are effectively always higher than your level. If you treated everyone as, say, level 5, you could have weaker poisons and diseases that were easier to resist, in addition to the really dangerous ones.

An excellent point.

[markc]

It's interesting that people pick level 1, which means poisons and diseases are effectively always higher than your level. If you treated everyone as, say, level 5, you could have weaker poisons and diseases that were easier to resist, in addition to the really dangerous ones.

An excellent point.

 I agree.
MDC

[yammahoper]

easy to resist could be level one or even zero or simply have an innate bonus to the rr, but that is not the issue I have.  The point is if a poison or drug is exposed to the system, then there should ne a mini,al effect that cannot be resisted.  If a poisonous snake injects you with its venom, it will run its course.  The rr can represent if the fangs fail to penetrate your boot or get caught up in the fabric of your shirt too, but if exposed, venoms cannot be resisted 100% with no effect.  Same with a disease or intoxicant.  If live HIV gets into your system, you have HIV.  The rr should represent how long it takes for the effects to settle in and how severe they will be.  The current all or nothing rr, regardless of the attacks level, often fails to address this.

The mechanics of reality are always messy and often involve paperwork 

[arakish]

As others have posted, I make all diseases level 1.  I then give them modifiers to show how strong or weak they are.  For resisting, I make all PCs level 1.  On each exposure, I give modifiers to allow them to resist better on later exposures.  Of course, they always do get their Co modifier to modify their RR.

On diseases that effect only once (maybe), such as chicken pox, the PCs receive an automatic +100 to resist later exposures.  However, with the news about adults who were vaccinated against polio, actually catching polio later due to their children getting vaccinated, causes me to wonder if such things as chicken pox couldn't mutate later and kill adults.  At least, I think chicken pox would kill an adult who never had it.  Will have to research.

On diseases that effect only once seasonally, such as influenza virus, the new mutation gets a bonus, where the older versions give the PCs bonuses to resist.

And then some diseases, such as leprosy, once caught, you never get rid of it.  You can only control it.  But you do resist on each exposure.  However, if you live in an area with leprosy, I rule that your resistance goes down SLOWLY.  We still do not how leprosy is actually spread, but do know that living around it makes your chances of getting it better (i.e. - resistance slowly goes down).  Usually I apply an accumulative -1 penalty per time period depending upon how rampant the leprosy is in the area.  The -1 could accumulate once per day, once per week, once per month.

And once, I even made a disease that negated the Elves +100 RR mod.  As another posted, that is one worthy of attention.

rmfr

[providence13]

http://www.humanillnesses.com/Infectious-Diseases-He-My/Leprosy.html#b

Apparently there are different versions of Hansen's Disease. Or different severity, at least.
I remember from the book/movie Motorcycle Diaries, hand washing should give a new RR each time.

It sounds like even shingles is getting a vaccine.


I wonder if a RR is open ended failed, should the disease be resistant to whatever was used to treat it?
Having some disorders be resistant to Herbs could be interesting.. 

[RandalThor]

The rr can represent if the fangs fail to penetrate your boot or get caught up in the fabric of your shirt too,

this is how I have almost always explained this situation - when I have bothered to at all. the level part comes in the form of, "you realized that there could be something nasty in that trash, so you gloved up and put a cloth over your mouth and nose," or something like that. Of course, I understand the other part, where if the player did not describe their character dong that, then they are SOL. If you go the latter route, then, sure, for most diseases and poisons it doesn't make sense that your "level" kept it from affecting you and should be handled in a more nasty/realistic way. There are several examples above.

[jdale]

On diseases that effect only once (maybe), such as chicken pox, the PCs receive an automatic +100 to resist later exposures.  However, with the news about adults who were vaccinated against polio, actually catching polio later due to their children getting vaccinated, causes me to wonder if such things as chicken pox couldn't mutate later and kill adults.  At least, I think chicken pox would kill an adult who never had it.  Will have to research.

You can catch chickenpox a second time, it's just rare. Usually if it was mild case the first time. I got it again, though. +100 makes sense to me. You are pretty safe, but you can always roll open-ended down....



I think part of the idea of level is that a higher level game tends to be more "heroic" and that often goes hand-in-hand with less realistic. Legends don't catch a cold. Whether this is appropriate depends on the tone of the game you want.

[VladD]

I have a problem explaining why a RR is a way of avoiding injection or infection, since the rules (p149 RMFRP: poison chart) state that poison is injected on delivering a critical (any critical) than the RR can't be avoiding the fangs, or the infected arterial spray.
Note that there are people that vaccinate themselves by using tiny amounts of venom. They won't get (too) sick and built resistance all the same, allowing them to avoid poisoning after a full bite. That's what the RR is representing, IMHO. It does make sense to use the lvl 1 method since toxins are extremely dangerous, it also makes for a VERY interesting use/ remove poison skill check every time poison is handled!

[Cormac Doyle]

shingles and chickenpox are the same thing; Shingles keeps coming back at times when your immune system is weakened due to stress or under attack from another infection. Shingles is essentially caused by the chicken pox virus getting into the nerves. It then causes inflammation of the nerves. In theory, it can cause meningitis, but typically it "just" causes inflammation of one or more nerve bundles somewhere in the body. Small nerve bundles are just itchy/uncomfortable; large nerve bundles (such as the one in the hip/upper leg, supplying the nerves to the entire leg) get extremely painful and can be quite debilitating ... Believe it or not, this is why it is a GOOD thing to get chickenpox as a child - your immune system is much more likely to wipe it out without involvement of the nerves ... whereas as an adult, the same infection is very likely to get into your nerves and become shingles (possibly without every showing the more traditional "chicken pox" symptoms) ... and once it is there, it is always there - the best your immune system can do is get rid of the symptoms, since it can't destroy the nerves that "protect" the virus.

Herpes lesions (called "Cold sores" around the mouth ... although it can affect other parts of the body) keep coming back - they are not "new" infections ... but rather reawakening of the existing virus for reasons similar to shingles (temporarily weakened immune system)

One of the causes of diabetes is a viral infection that triggers an immune response that eliminates the virus, but the goes on to target the pancreatic cells responsible for creating insulin ...

Epidemiology, toxicology/pharmacology, microbiology and immunology are very interesting subjects ... but modeling them in a "simple" manner is very difficult.

What I can say is that a level-based resistance is nonsense - but that resistance should be linked to health (constitution). If you use a fatigue system (that should model both short term and long-term stress and also include the effects of other illnesses), then the fatigue system is the perfect modifier for any illness/poison/disease/etc. So the question becomes, do specific illnesses get a modifier to the attack, and if so, what?

[GrumpyOldFart]

Epidemiology, toxicology/pharmacology, microbiology and immunology are very interesting subjects ... but modeling them in a "simple" manner is very difficult.

Which is why I tried to recruit you to do it. 

I can't claim to have any great ideas on how to do it, but I can't help feeling that the entire concept needs to be rethought for such things.

[dutch206]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought this section of the rules was a little out-of-focus.  I'm not even sure I like the HARP version, where you get to buy ranks in resistances.

[GrumpyOldFart]

I'm not even sure I like the HARP version, where you get to buy ranks in resistances.

That has its issues, but I still consider it an improvement over level based resistance.

[arakish]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought this section of the rules was a little out-of-focus.  I'm not even sure I like the HARP version, where you get to buy ranks in resistances.

The only time I would allow this is if like the professional snake hunters/charmers/et. al. who, as VladD wrote,

Note that there are people that vaccinate themselves by using tiny amounts of venom. They won't get (too) sick and built resistance all the same, allowing them to avoid poisoning after a full bite.

actually do "vaccinate" themselves against certain toxins/poisons.  I would never allow skill ranks to be purchased for resistance against ANY disease.  That is ridiculous.

As another posted, I do modify RRs against diseases, especially the rhinovirus (common cold), due to exhaustion.  I do this because I have noticed persons seem to be more susceptible to catching a cold when they are completely worn out as opposed to when they are feeling "on top of the world."

Epidemiology, toxicology/pharmacology, microbiology and immunology are very interesting subjects ... but modeling them in a "simple" manner is very difficult.

Which is why I tried to recruit you to do it. 

I second the nomination.   

As I have been working on writing up my new world, I have begun to throw out the standard RR methods and rewrite them (making it more complicated, thus joy for me).

I think part of the idea of level is that a higher level game tends to be more "heroic" and that often goes hand-in-hand with less realistic. Legends don't catch a cold. Whether this is appropriate depends on the tone of the game you want.

And this, I have had problems with in the past.  I have had some rather heated debates with players when I tell them their character has caught a nasty case of the common cold.  "But my character is a hero."  Then I would ask them why a hero should never catch a cold, and get back, "It never happens in the books."  And I would litterally hurt myself as I fell and ROTFLMAO.

I never gave PCs any kind of bonus for resisting a disease.  Why should I?  Just because they are heroes?  Please.  I have never seen why any heroic character should be any more resistance to the common cold as the commoners, unless s/he has a very high Constitution.  Just for example, I would be considered to be a commoner by the standards of this world.  (And yes, I know, today's world is better equipped, blah, blah, blah...)  However, I have never caught the flu until a couple of years ago.  I went through 48 years of life and NEVER caught the flu.  I would get the occasional sniffles, but never caught the cold until after I had caught the flu for the first time.  And I have never caught the flu or cold since.  My major problem is rhinitis (seasonal allergies).

Thus, I ask, why should any heroes/heroines be any different than the commoners?

This is the reasoning I used in setting any disease resistance to level 1.  All diseases are level 1, all characters, whether PC or NPC, are level 1, regardless of their actual Experience Level.  Everything is on a level palying ground as it should be.  More potent diseases get bonuses.  Extremely potent diseases get larger bonuses.  Or would you rather I give the PCs penalties?  Nah.  Looks worse to penalize the PCs than to bonus the disease.

And as Cormac Doyle posted, I take all these things into consideration.  And as said, it has led to some grief with my players, but they eventually accepted it when they realized I ruled fairly in that everything is level 1, regardless of who or what they are.

The only exception I made was with the Elves.  Since RR is RAW on a level-based system, I actually doubled their disease RR mod to make it fair.  After all, Elves are supposed to be immune to all diseases.  If I am giving a particularly nasty influenza strain a +50 bonus (say to emulate the "Spanish Flu"), then it could well infect an Elf when it should not.

rmfr

[GrumpyOldFart]

I have had some rather heated debates with players when I tell them their character has caught a nasty case of the common cold.  "But my character is a hero."  Then I would ask them why a hero should never catch a cold, and get back, "It never happens in the books."

In the climactic battle of Shakespeare's Henry V, half or more of the "heroes" of the story are suffering from dysentery. My players know better than to go there, they're all too well read.

 

Since RR is RAW on a level-based system, I actually doubled their disease RR mod to make it fair.  After all, Elves are supposed to be immune to all diseases.  If I am giving a particularly nasty influenza strain a +50 bonus (say to emulate the "Spanish Flu"), then it could well infect an Elf when it should not.

One of the nastiest things I've ever done as a GM was to allow a very powerful cursed item that rolled randomly in treasure to stand. The cute little elf girl was working as an exotic dancer in a club in the Elven Quarter of a major trade city (primarily dwarf population). As such, every night I rolled a random VERY MINOR treasure for the night's takings, usually between 5 bp and 2 sp, with about 1/10 of 1% chance of a magic item of some sort. After slightly over 3 months, she actually got a magic item in her tip jar.

It was an item of the 50th level evil cleric spell, Plague.

Being a hateful type of person when I GM, I decided to let it stand, and have the RR treated as disease rather than magic. So the little elf stripper girl goes walking through the commercial quarter in the wee hours, on her way to an alchemist to get it identified. She is, of course, unaffected. But even in the wee hours of the morning, the commercial quarter of a city of 3/4 of a million people is still hopping. And naturally when she reaches the alchemist's shop the alarms go off and she's caged and isolated by the security system, and the alchemists tell her what she has and offer to properly dispose of it for her...

...but of course by that time it's far too late, she walked half a mile across the crowded commercial quarter with it already.

So the elf girl shows up with a disease item... and within 24 hours, 92% of the human population (about 50,000 people) is dead, 66% of the 700,000 dwarves are dead,... and just 4% of the 10,000 elves.

Can you say 'dwarf city government, not very trusting of elves in the first place, throws a FIT'? Yes, I knew that you could.

The players were really annoyed when they found out that anyone with any tiniest taint of elven blood was banished from the city. That was their favorite trade city.

 

[arakish]

That almost sounds like what I have done with Onaviu.  One of the Elves visited a small island (5km x 2 km) and picked up a hellacious virus.  He did not know he picked up a virus since the people on that island were also immune (similar to chicken pox) to that virus.  Since he was immune to it (being an Elf), he carried it back and started the dreaded Demik.

He infected all other mammalian animals and wiped out 75% of them within the first six months of his return.  This turned the surviving humans and dwarfs against the Elves.  In the ensuing war, the humans and dwarfs wiped out the Elves to the point of all three being on the verge of complete extinction.

Enter the Hatharnd.  They seem to have an herb that seems to cure the Demik.  It also works.  However, the herb must still be taken at least twice a day, or the Demik will begin to necrotize the flesh of any mammal.  But, one good point, cows and chickens seem to get over the Demik and begin to multiply.  However, like the humans and dwarfs, they also need the herb.

Biggest problem, as far as anyone knows, is that Demik goes pandemic and wipes out all mammalian life across the entire world.

Thus, the Hatharnd aid the humans and dwarfs to finish the annihilation of the evil Elves.  Now the peoples, with the aid of the Hatharnd, are now trying to resurrect their former glory.

But where does the truth lie?  Or where is the lie truth?

By The Light Of Dark

rmfr

[RandalThor]

I have a problem explaining why a RR is a way of avoiding injection or infection, since the rules (p149 RMFRP: poison chart) state that poison is injected on delivering a critical (any critical) than the RR can't be avoiding the fangs, or the infected arterial spray.

Very simple: not enough got injected.

This seems to me like one of those traps we gamers make for ourselves. We want detail and description, but we also want it to be abstract enough to encompass all the crazy things we do and make it playable. If you are trying to reason out why this person didn't get poisoned/diseased while the other guy did through detailed role-playing description, then why don't you do that for combat? Describe to be how you attack the ogre, and I will tell you what happens.

Levels and dice are there for a reason, sometimes what you do is take the results of the rolls and come up with the how. That is part of being a GM, I believe. If you leave everything up to what the players describe their characters as doing, then you are going to have a very long session in which they do nothing but tell you how they check and then open a door.

Anyway, no matter the precautions, sometimes you just screw up, get a little too hasty, forget something, etc. Remember, the characters aren't actually the players and just like them having knowledges and other skills the players don't, sometimes how they do something doesn't happen exactly how the player wanted. How often that happens has a direct coorelation to the characters level.

Example: A 3rd level character needs to rumage around the body of a diseased creature in order to get the ring it swallowed. The disease is spread through contact which means you don't want to have skin-to-nasty skin contact. So, he puts on these huge gauntlets that practically go up to his shoulders. But, what he doesn't know is that one of the seams is coming loose and a little of the diseased corpse gets in. (Failed RR.) Conversely, a 12th level character has to do the same thing, but he notices the worn seam and gets it patched. (Made RR.) Sometimes the description comes after the roll - just like with an attack and spell and skill check or..........

Now, that doesn't explain why one poison/disease is of higher level than another. I can only assume they wanted to reflect that some are stronger and more deadly than others, even to the more experienced. In a game with levels, that is handled through assigning opposing levels. Is it perfect? No. but nothing is, so you just have to roll with it, and use your imagination - the cornerstone of good great gaming.

[yammahoper]

In the ensuing war, the humans and dwarfs wiped out the Elves

Oh, now here's a tale to hear (fills tankard and sits next to firepalce)...tell me more of the death of those evil elves and all their kin...