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Offline markc

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instant and init idea
« on: December 31, 2011, 10:42:53 AM »
 I was thinking about trying out a new idea; that you can only cast instants 10 init points above your rolled init. (I would have to make a spell init for casters so as to not penalize them so heavily vs. arms professions). IMHO this decreases the potential "power" of the spell caster as it places some limits on when they can cast an instant. 
  What do you think of the idea?


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Offline RandalThor

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Re: instant and init idea
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2011, 11:57:25 AM »
Does casting an instant spell give you an initiative penalty now? If not, then your normal initiative should be fine.

Of course, I do initiative a bit different - it is more like a combat awareness check, with modifiers for bing in melee or not, and whether or not you suffered an attack last round, etc. Oh, and don't think that the fighter with the high Qu modifier is an initiative god, he's not, as part of a characters Reaction Score (the base score to be modified by the combat awareness check in order to determine initiative) comes from Intuition and character level. (A 30th level, average stat magician should have some sort of bonus compared to a 3rd level, high quickness fighter, imo.)
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Offline markc

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Re: instant and init idea
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2011, 12:39:20 PM »
AFAIK and remember instants can be cast at any time and it is not restricted by init.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: instant and init idea
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2011, 12:40:19 PM »
In RMSS and beyond I believe it's one instant and one normal spell per round, but instant being able to be cast anytime regardless of initiative.

I would never try to limit when the instant can be used as it defeats the entire purpose of an instant in my opinion.

That said, my instant use rule is very liberal.  It's an instant, you can cast it whenever you want and you can cast as many as you want (with some exceptions on an individual basis - such as some of the really nasty Cleric instants).

Can you cast 10 Blateturns in a round?  Yep, sure can.  However a few pointed lessons in conserving Power Points quickly eliminates that temptation for most players.
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Offline Kristen Mork

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Re: instant and init idea
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2011, 12:45:25 PM »
In RMSS ... I believe it's one instant and one normal spell per round, but instant being able to be cast anytime regardless of initiative.

In RMSS, it's one spell per round, instant or otherwise.  I don't think there's any special rule for casting an instant outside of the normal sequence.  Thus, most instants are cast during the Snap phase, but if the Fighter can get off an attack before your instant Bladeturn, you're in trouble.

Offline Cory Magel

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Re: instant and init idea
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2011, 01:18:35 PM »
In RMSS, it's one spell per round, instant or otherwise.  I don't think there's any special rule for casting an instant outside of the normal sequence.  Thus, most instants are cast during the Snap phase, but if the Fighter can get off an attack before your instant Bladeturn, you're in trouble.

Ah, so we've house ruled even that from the core at some point.  We REALLY didn't like casters who needed to cast an instant unable to use their other primary 'offensive' abilities.  As an example: A missile attacker that can cast spell turn then fire at the caster is bad news when the caster can only cast deflections and is then unable to try and cast (fireball/lighting bolt/whatever) at the missile attacker.
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Offline Marc R

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Re: instant and init idea
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2011, 02:51:03 PM »
Allowing multiple spells in a round can lead to some rather nasty combinations. . . It's not so bad when you are constrained to just the instants in the book, but can get way out of hand when items cast as instants.

Like if I have two rings of leaving or teleportation that act as instants, then I have a wand of fireballs that acts as an instant.

The first abuse people come up with is: I instantly fireball, then instantly teleport away.

The more creative get to: I instantly teleport to that rooftop above the enemy, instant fireball, then instant teleport away.

Casters tend to rapidly run out of PP, but if you allow them to cast multiple spells within a round, it takes their intentional "Eggshell with a bazooka" archetype and pushes it way out on steroids with a supercharger to "Soap bubble with a plasmatic repeater".

Unless you have some layered on rules to limit the types of spells allowed to be multi cast, my experience has been that creative players rapidly get out of hand with it.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: instant and init idea
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2011, 04:07:15 PM »
Like if I have two rings of leaving or teleportation that act as instants, then I have a wand of fireballs that acts as an instant.

This comes down to some house rules on objects with spell effects for us.  Lots of scenarios, but essentially a spell like effect is treated as the spell would be in terms of percentage required.  So if you're shooting a fireball out of a wand it's a 75% action.  Our (anyones) house rules change more than we realize often times.

If using some of our house rules some of the RM (MERP especially) magical items published as is are so far overboard it's almost funny.


Quote
Casters tend to rapidly run out of PP, but if you allow them to cast multiple spells within a round, it takes their intentional "Eggshell with a bazooka" archetype and pushes it way out on steroids with a supercharger to "Soap bubble with a plasmatic repeater".

This is eliminated by having them run into another combat before they are able to replenish their PP's. It usually only takes one instance for them to throttle back on the glass canon behavior if they hadn't taken the caution seriously by the GM or others places in the first place.
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Offline Marc R

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Re: instant and init idea
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2011, 05:31:35 PM »
Indeed, it's doable, but I suspect that without a hard and experienced GM at the helm, it'd get out of control fast.
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Offline markc

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Re: instant and init idea
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2011, 07:18:44 PM »
  I agree that magic item and multiple spell casting can be a huge problem.
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Offline ReaperWolf

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Re: instant and init idea
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2011, 07:26:29 PM »
This is eliminated by having them run into another combat before they are able to replenish their PP's. It usually only takes one instance for them to throttle back on the glass canon behavior if they hadn't taken the caution seriously by the GM or others places in the first place.

<<laughing>> Yeah, the limited omniscience of players can really be used against 'em.

One of the things I frequently do is I hold a few combatants in reserve and/or have a few stragglers arrive a few rounds into the fight. Player characters have a tendency to specialize leading to predictable behaviors. Predictable = lazy/boring so I like to keep the players on their toes by limiting their knowledge.

So the players a few rounds into combat with goblins are having a pretty easy time of it. When I think the PCs are distracted and focused on enemies they can see on the MegaMat I send in some goblin sneaks. Only the players who make the rolls see the little buggers sneaking up and those that don't suffer the consequences. If none of the characters notice, the PCs are in for a world of hurt as they find themselves right in the middle of an ambush. Also, the goblins may have a few allies lurking nearby such as hobgoblins, an ogre, or maybe even a turb of bugbears who arrive in waves smashing against the PCs like a tsunami on beachfront property.

It's ok for PCs to feel the occasional bit of security but when they start to feel too secure is when I hit 'em hard.

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Offline kevinmccollum

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Re: instant and init idea
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2011, 10:50:05 PM »
Why is it a bad thing to have a mage cast deflect and NOT be able to use his offensive spells? no worse than a melee type being forced to parry by an opponent. One spell per round is all we allow for a host of reasons. (let an evil cleric get off a couple of Absolutions, see how that affects your game)

Offline markc

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Re: instant and init idea
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2011, 11:59:55 PM »
Why is it a bad thing to have a mage cast deflect and NOT be able to use his offensive spells? no worse than a melee type being forced to parry by an opponent. One spell per round is all we allow for a host of reasons. (let an evil cleric get off a couple of Absolutions, see how that affects your game)


 I agree that I will have to take a look at some spells and reclassify them. I am thinking about limiting Absolution to enemies of the clerics deity and maybe limit it to being cast in there temple area. Powerful low level spells IMHO need some limit but not nerf them entirely.
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Offline kevinmccollum

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Re: instant and init idea
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2012, 12:42:21 AM »
OK, then how about that old great drake who is tossing two mass words a round? Or even the low level evil cleric spells (dark stunning, dark sleep) or the words off of the Spirit Mastery list (which is what the great drakes will be using). It gets nasty fast.

On a side note, instant spells being beaten by a melee casting during the "snap phase" is pretty ludicrous. As is the concept of a "snap phase"

Offline yammahoper

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Re: instant and init idea
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2012, 09:23:56 AM »
so...shooting or hitting the mage with a thrown object before he can cast is ludicrous?  Seems like a good solid tactic to me.  The idea that magic will always and all ways be first, that strikes me as ludicrous.

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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: instant and init idea
« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2012, 01:20:40 PM »
Why is it a bad thing to have a mage cast deflect and NOT be able to use his offensive spells? no worse than a melee type being forced to parry by an opponent. One spell per round is all we allow for a host of reasons. (let an evil cleric get off a couple of Absolutions, see how that affects your game)

Yeah, I mention earlier that there are some nasty instant spells out there that we need to take into account.  Absolutions is the aboslute biggest one (pun totally intended).  There is even an in-character way to handle that one however... you're a Cleric and have a deity.  Start tossing around Absolutions like they are Halloween candy in a parade and you're probably going to have to explain yourself to the higher ups.

So, about the Mage and deflect question.  If a caster is in melee combat they are hosed in terms of casting unless it's an instant.  If a caster is standing back, as they probably should, something like an archer can keep them pinned down and largely ineffective.  The reverse is generally not true although the caster could try to incapacitate the archer quickly somehow.  The archer can typically take what the caster throws their way AND still perform their primary mode of attack.  Toss in the (granted unusual) possibility of the archer having an instant that can turn spells and the gap widens (because the archer is just casting one spell and making a physical attack whereas the caster cannot match the end result with a deflections and - say - a Firebolt).  While it is likely partially due to our style of play, this resulted in an imbalance of effectiveness in combat.

OK, then how about that old great drake who is tossing two mass words a round? Or even the low level evil cleric spells (dark stunning, dark sleep) or the words off of the Spirit Mastery list (which is what the great drakes will be using). It gets nasty fast.

Yes it can!  As Marc mentioned, you need to have a good experienced GM (and players too really).  We've been gaming for over 30 years with around 20 of it in RM with mostly the same core group of gamers.  So we don't run into the issues a lot of groups might.

One of our main GM's has a one instant and one normal spell rule, which would eliminate the great drake example.  As I said, my theory on them is a bit more liberal.  Although in the case of something like a great drake I would probably treat it more like an ability than a true spell and thereby state it is a "once per round" ability.


Quote
On a side note, instant spells being beaten by a melee casting during the "snap phase" is pretty ludicrous. As is the concept of a "snap phase"

Not possible with my theory.  Instants are instant, no initiative required.  While there are some odd-ball exceptions (again, Absolutions being a perfect example) think of it like Magic The Gathering instants, they are often in reaction to something else.

I actually really like the Snap, Normal, Deliberate phases in RMSS better than most the other ways a round can be setup.  My opinion on it is a bit odd though.  The way the RMSS round work are a balance of the easy and complex ways a round could be setup and, in my opinion, is a great place to start with a core round.  The important thing about the phases to me is that you have the ability to make a 'sloppy fast attack' in snap if you know your foe is always going to beat your initiative.  If the foe wants to MAKE SURE they attack first, then they need to do the same.  It's a tactical option that I think makes the round more interesting.

That said, I would personally gravitate to a slightly simpler or more complex 'round'.
My simpler option is roughly...
1) Roll initiative. 2) Openly declare actions in order of worst to best initiative. 3) Declare OB/Parry splits, shield placement, etc. 4) Movement. 5) Resolve declared actions in order of best to worst initiative.

The more complex version I won't get into major detail, but it is essentially a second by second constant round based largely on CEATS.

In the first round doing a "1 Instant and 1 Normal" spell setup is probably better due to the non-phased round.  But in the second by second setup just opening it up is the better option for us.  As you, I and others mention, you just need to make sure you've got an experienced GM/group... but if you're running second by second in RM that's most likely the case. :)
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Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: instant and init idea
« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2012, 02:06:31 PM »
IIRC, you're at a -75 while putting the spell together, no? So if you want to "allow" multiple spells per round, but don't want to have to put up with the reality of it on a regular basis, say okay, you can cast as many spells per round as you like.... at -75 per spell after the first. Cast an instant and a normal, the normal spell gets a -75 on the die roll. If you can figure out a way to stack powers such that you can get in another one that same round, feel free... at -150.

That way if someone tries to cast more than one per round at all, it only happens when they're desperate and really have nothing left to lose. And either it works, or they go out with a bang, so to speak.

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Offline Marc R

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Re: instant and init idea
« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2012, 02:19:37 PM »
The whole "casters first" logic was with us for decades going back to the RM1 round. . . .and developed into one end result.

Casters were so potentially dangerous, being around casters made everyone else nervous, and a lot of combats started with "I shoot the mage with my crossbow". . .being the only way to go before a deflection was to be the first attack that starts the fight. . . .or if possible, walking off, sneaking back, and killing the caster from ambush.

It gives a very gritty feel, but I found the escalation of tension level cut back on the roleplay and pushed up the tactical. Everyone feels sort of like every caster is walking around with a gun out pointing it at whoever they speak to.

I liked the break from that, where standing in arms length of each other, it's not a guarantee that the spell goes before the missile goes before the slash. It seemed to calm my players down a bit, take everything down a notch of tension and lead to more roleplay.

In a harder, more tactical oriented, more combat focused campaign, it likely would be a good thing, adding tension, but in many other campaign types we found it a drag.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2012, 02:24:47 PM by Marc R »
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: instant and init idea
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2012, 06:06:16 AM »
Casters were so potentially dangerous, being around casters made everyone else nervous, and a lot of combats started with "I shoot the mage with my crossbow". . .being the only way to go before a deflection was to be the first attack that starts the fight. . . .or if possible, walking off, sneaking back, and killing the caster from ambush.
This is one of the reasons I like a magic system that has some more long-lasting, passive-until-triggered type spell defenses.

For example (A very generic example): Detect Attack is a spell that a mage cast on themselves and it lasts until triggered - or for 24 hours / until triggered, whichever comes first. Now, it has a set range it can detect at, which can change as the mage gets higher in level (or more ranks in the Magic Defenses spell list it comes from, not that I have made that list), so things that attack them from outside that range can still bypass this and surprise them. But, if someone decides to attack them and they are within the range of the spell, the mage instantly knows of the impending attack, and my even try to determine who it is coming from, though they do get a general idea of the direction and type of attack (physical, magical, etc..). This spell is so they have an opportunity to get some active defensive spells up (or to just duck behind cover, whatever).

I don't know why, but as I have progressed as a gamer, the vancian (?) type magic of direct damage/effect has felt worse and worse to me. I just don't like the fact that the magic systems of the vast majority of fantasy RPGs (and RM is no exception here) is mostly used in a completely conscious way. That is, the mage is conscious of what is going on, and consciously uses a certain spell. Where are the passive defensive spells that make the mage really scary? You know, the ones that make them seem omniscient*, they always know when you are approaching them, even when their backs are turned and they are seemingly engrossed in a mystical tome. Making them feel more mystical and even a bit creepy. (I mean, really. Who isn't a bit weirded out when someone you know says your name as you try to sneak up on them? It is awesome and creepy all at the same time.)

It is these kinds of spells that make attacking a mage a risky business - even from "surprise." Because you don't know what they have going already. In the Dresden Files it is the Dying Curse that makes attacking a wizard a very risky business. Even if you kill them, if they are able to get off a last few words......boy are you in for a world of hurt.


*Sorry, but the current detection spells are a joke! 5' radius?!? Are you kidding me?!?! Come on! How about a cone effect at the very least, or an option of making it a radius around the caster for a much reduced range, or a cone with less of a reduction in range, etc...? OK, I guess you can try and build it with Spell Mastery but that seems like quite a bit of work for something that should probably be basic to the spell. (Some mage sat down and designed, it to have a 5' radius? (And probably took them days and days, to do it, too. That sounds like a bunch of wasted effort to me.) Plus, the mage has to be actively searching for (X). So, they have to ready be alerted, or just searching for whatever reason. Not cool.  8) Of course, as I don't know all the spells and spell lists intimately (but fairly well), I could just be missing these spells.
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Offline pastaav

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Re: instant and init idea
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2012, 07:06:01 AM »
Allowing multiple spells in a round can lead to some rather nasty combinations. . . It's not so bad when you are constrained to just the instants in the book, but can get way out of hand when items cast as instants.
Indeed magic items able to cast magic as instants is dangerous thing. Treasure Companion section 8.3 specify that all spells cast from an item take one round, and it does directly comment that this means instantaneous spells will take longer time to cast.

As far as I recall the core rules have no rules about how long it takes to activate magic items, but on the other hand they do neither include any rules about limitations of the number of magic items that can be activated during a round so the core rules is generally lacking in the area.
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