Topic: Aluminum Questions

[markc]

 I am away from my books at the moment and had a couple of Aluminum (AL) questions that someone asked me.


 1) What effect would AL shafts have on bow ranges, OB, firing into melee?
 2) Natural AL is very very rare what spell/ritual would you use to refine it? Today it requires a lot of electricity to make pure AL.
 3) What other effects do you think having a good source of AL would have in a fantasy game?


Thanks
MDC 

[providence13]

I am away from my books at the moment and had a couple of Aluminum (AL) questions that someone asked me.


 1) What effect would AL shafts have on bow ranges, OB, firing into melee?
 

http://www.meta-synthesis.com/archery/archery.html
I'm not a bow guy, but I found some info. Light is not always better.

I also found some interesting stuff on ancient aluminum. Not sure of the veracity..

[markc]

Thanks
MDC

[Ynglaur]

In the ancient world, Aluminum was almost priceless, even though it had few useful functions per se.  It was considered far more valuable than gold, platinum, and many precious stones, simply because naturally-occurring aluminum is quite rare.  It wasn't until the 1800's (iirc) that we figured out how to pull aluminum from aluminum dioxide, which is, almost literally, as common as dirt.

Aluminum is nice for reducing weight, but doesn't have much tensile strength.  That is, it tends to warp when bent rather than returning to its previous form.

[jdale]

For modern target shooting, the advantage of aluminum over wood is that the aluminum arrows don't break. Wood arrows do, especially if you don't always hit the target. Wood arrows also warp over time, while aluminum arrows stay straight. Unless you step on them -- aluminum arrows fired into melee are likely to be damaged that way. They will still fire but they are impossible to ever straighten out. It is possible to correct the warp of wood arrows if it isn't too bad to begin with and you know what you are doing. (Carbon fiber is even better, it is light like aluminum and doesn't snap as easily as wood, but it flexes without warping so carbon fiber shafts usually survive getting stepped on.)

Arrows that are not straight will not fly straight. Easiest to model that with a penalty (-5 to -15 perhaps) although you could also double the range penalties (as the problem compounds the farther the arrow flies).

I don't think a new, well-made aluminum arrow is going to be inherently better than a new, well-made wooden arrow. But after a few months of travel and especially if they are used, the aluminum arrows will be just as good and the wooden ones will be worse. Not sure this is worth modeling in the game. Especially since a skilled archer will be correcting their arrows.

This may be even less relevant for in-game bows than modern target bows, since the bows in the game are heavier draw weight and thus use thicker arrows.

In the real world, I think it is also easier to mass produce aluminum shafts than wood ones. I don't know that this would apply in a fantasy setting.

[markc]

jdale;
 Your Draw Weight comment is very interesting as I use an article from the GuildCompanion.com that provides a min ST to use weapons. And the reduced Draw of a bow would make it easier for smaller races or weaker races to use bigger bows or get more power out of the bows they can use.
Thanks a lot.
MDC

[pastaav]

IMHO
Aluminum = Mithril
Titan = Eog

[jdale]

The advancement that makes the most difference for getting more power out of a bow with the least arm strength is the compound bow - the bow with all the pulleys and wheels and such. Well, that and the crossbow which uses a totally different solution (at the expense of speed). The compound bow was invented in the 1960's though.

Recurve bows also have more power than straight bows requiring the same strength to pull. Reflex bows too. I don't know to what degree, but it's not a huge difference. I would guess less than 50%. Still, historical groups who are limited in bow size have migrated to recurve designs. Mostly horsemen (e.g. Mongols).

But the reason that modern target bows are easier to pull is not really because of materials or design (aside from compound bows) such as aluminum arrows, but because we're not trying to kill anything. An 80 lbs draw bow will shoot farther and perhaps straighter and you won't be able to see where you hit the target because the arrow will have gone all the way through it....  Also, few of us have the arm strength to shoot a bow like that all day. A 25 lbs draw bow is fine for target shooting but not very useful for hunting (much less combat).

A weaker race will generally use lighter bows. There's no minimum size on a bow, although the "short bow" as defined in the game presumably assumes a certain level of strength. Aside from a recurve design, the other thing a weaker race can do to compensate is use stealth to get close and poison arrows....

[markc]

IMHO
Aluminum = Mithril
Titan = Eog

Titan=Eog; Titan is Titanium?
MDC

[Marc R]

Compound = pulley bow (modern)
Composite = multiple materials
Self bow = one material.

Composite material bows are more effective per length. . .and semi-composite bows like the English longbow (which used staves drawn from the transition line between sapwood and heartwood to get the composite effect of having different tensile strengths on front and back) us variations in the tensile character of the face and back of the bow to get more power out of less bow material.

Further complexities, like bows built of 3, 5 or 7 integrated parts of differing materials, like different woods, horn, or metal allows you to mix and match material types to get better characteristics out of given portions of the bow, like you want the central handle to flex as little as possible, so it doesn't push the arrow in any direction other than forward, you want more flex and strength out of the lengths above and below the handle, and then there are characteristics you'd want to add to the tips both in terms of durability, string wear, and consistent release without vibration or a curved surge of power transfer.

The pulleys and such of modern bows merely allow you to pull and hold with ease. . .the pull is just as hard, but once pulled, the mechanical advantage makes it easier to hold. . .and it's much easier to aim a 50+ pound draw bow if you're not holding 50+ pounds of tension at bay. . .so the reduction in effort jitter and ability to walk around holding the bow pulled are the advantage to those.

Self bows, like those of many cultures, are relatively weak compared to their composite cousins. . .the bows of the native americans for instance are nothing close to the mongol bow. . .and even the semi-composite english longbow is merely a half step in the right direction. . .the composite bows, especially late era ones like the mongol bow, were a step forward akin to smoothbores vs rifles in firearms.

As to arrow material, other than the minor issues noted above, I've never heard much that points to vast differences, compared to bow materials, which per above, matter quite a bit.

[thirqual]

In the ancient world, Aluminum was almost priceless, even though it had few useful functions per se.  It was considered far more valuable than gold, platinum, and many precious stones, simply because naturally-occurring aluminum is quite rare.  It wasn't until the 1800's (iirc) that we figured out how to pull aluminum from aluminum dioxide, which is, almost literally, as common as dirt.

This is very wrong. Aluminium does not occurs naturally on this planet. To extract it from its ores (mostly oxydes), you either need to reduce it with an alkaline metal (sodium or potassium) or to use electrolysis. Hence for about 40 years (1850-1890), aluminium was extremely valuable.

The last part is very true. Even today, no-one will  use aluminium for armor when steel is available (and alloys of Al with Cu and other common metals do not cut it either).

[providence13]

http://www.historykb.com/Uwe/Forum.aspx/what-if/5887/Needham-on-ancient-Chinese-aluminum
Belt buckles from the tomb of Chou Chou.

I've heard of some vulcanism making small amounts that could be mined.(Russia?)

Who knows what the Wedge of Aiud really is..

Of course, all of these could be fake.

[GrumpyOldFart]

Full disclosure, I know very little of bows or arrows, so take this as opinion with no real backing, but...

I'd expect what type of head you were using to make more difference in arrow results than the materials used. A mithril blunt still performs like a blunt, a stone barbed blade tip still performs like a barbed blade tip.

[providence13]

Good points, GOF.
Although I might be straying off topic a bit, flint napping is a real skill. I don't know if anything is sharper.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_go2043/is_n3_v49/ai_n28685722/

micron level scalpels!

[markc]

  I remember from Chem class that very very small amounts of pure Al were found and that pure Al was the most valuable metal. The story that was related in the book was that the French Nobility had dinner ware made from pure Al and were very excited to eat with and off it.
MDC

[providence13]

http://acswebcontent.acs.org/landmarks/landmarks/al/revolution.html
To summarize:
 Henri Sainte-Claire Deville  made enough aluminum for a display at the 1855 Paris Exposition. Called "silver from clay," aluminum bars were set alongside France’s crown jewels.
Aluminum was valued at $115 per pound in 1855; more expensive than gold.
Napoleon III used aluminum cutlery at state banquets, had aluminum equipment for his military and even had an aluminum and gold baby rattle for his son.

But all of this was man made by a chemical process. When the process became cheaper to produce, so did the metal.

What if the Tolkien world was flooded with Mithral? 

[kevinmccollum]

IMHO
Aluminum = Mithril
Titan = Eog

Not even close. Mithril was a light, malleable, easily worked material which did not corrode and always looked polished. When alloyed with other materials, it made a superior alloy for weapons and armor.

Titanium is a component of Eog as is mithril

[pastaav]

IMHO
Aluminum = Mithril
Titan = Eog

Not even close. Mithril was a light, malleable, easily worked material which did not corrode and always looked polished. When alloyed with other materials, it made a superior alloy for weapons and armor.

You say "not even close" and then continue to describe properties that also apply to Aluminium...
 

Titanium is a component of Eog as is mithril

I have seen talk on the net about Titanium being Mithril. Problem is just that Titanium is never found in its pure form so you would not have mines for it. (Aluminum do on the other hand in rare cases exist in pure form in nature so the idea of Mines of Moria as singular source of mithril works). The prime source of Titanium before modern times meteorites, this fits rather well with themes about Eog described as true iron or star iron.

Anyway...it is your game. If you want Eog and Mithril to be mysterious alloys that has not been reinvented by science then go ahead. Myself I am more satisfied with them fitting inside a sci fi cross over setting, but it is matter of preference.

[arakish]

I am away from my books at the moment and had a couple of Aluminum (AL) questions that someone asked me.

 1) What effect would AL shafts have on bow ranges, OB, firing into melee?
 2) Natural AL is very very rare what spell/ritual would you use to refine it? Today it requires a lot of electricity to make pure AL.
 3) What other effects do you think having a good source of AL would have in a fantasy game?

Thanks
MDC

Let's see.

2) Natural AL is very very rare what spell/ritual would you use to refine it? Today it requires a lot of electricity to make pure AL.

IIRC, the Treasure Companion mentions that to make/work aluminium, it requires the 50th level Inorganic Skills spell "Make/Work" to be used for Aluminium since it is almost never found in pure form.  It is always in the ore known as bauxite.  And other ores, but bauxite is the most common ore behind the silicate ores.  I use the same ruling.

1) What effect would AL shafts have on bow ranges, OB, firing into melee?

Very little.  As others mention, aluminium arrows will not break/shatter as easily as wood, but it does get bent rather easily.  As an amateur archer, I prefer the carbon fiber arrows.  They never get bent.  Almost cannot be broken.  And it is so much easier to change arrow heads as needed.  One major problem with aluminium arrows is that they are very easy for even the slightest gust of breeze to throw the aim off by a large amount since they are so light.  Carbon fiber arrows are also bad for this since they are also lighter than the wooden arrows, but they are not as light as the aluminium arrows.  Furthermore, aluminium arrows will not fly as far as the wood and carbon fiber arrows.

Also draw-weight of the bow could be so great that it may be more force than the arrow can handle, and like some bullets, the arrow can actually tumble end over end.

3) What other effects do you think having a good source of AL would have in a fantasy game?

IMHO, only the same effect as Mithril.  Since it may even be more rare to have pure aluminium, it would mostly only be used as special trade medallions between Kings and Lords, or other equally high nobility.

Not even close. Mithril was a light, malleable, easily worked material which did not corrode and always looked polished. When alloyed with other materials, it made a superior alloy for weapons and armor.

Titanium is a component of Eog as is mithril

Depends on how one conceptualizes Mithril.  On my past world of Udava, and my new world of Onaviu, Mithril is a very dark blue metallic element.  It exists within the lanthinide series, is very dense, very strong, and is not very malleable.  Yes it can be worked using the normal smithing methods, but not without much difficulty.  This is the main reason why Mithril is usually only worked by the Forgers.  Although its ability to absorb and hold huge amounts of power is also a very good reason.  Basically, for the smiths, Mithril is about 12 times as difficult to smith as High Steel.

Example of My Mithril


I have never used Eog or Laen in my worlds, thus, no opinion.

rmfr

[kevinmccollum]

Quote

IMHO
Aluminum = Mithril
Titan = Eog




Not even close. Mithril was a light, malleable, easily worked material which did not corrode and always looked polished. When alloyed with other materials, it made a superior alloy for weapons and armor.



You say "not even close" and then continue to describe properties that also apply to Aluminium...

Really? Aluminum corrodes quite nicely and is NOT something you alloy to make superior weapons and armor.