Topic: Missile use in melee

[Kritilit]

I have always wondered: is it possible to use missile weapons when engaged in melee? Or conversely, are there any penalties to firing a bow at someone who is trying to hack your head off? I have read nothing on this in the rule books, and usually don't let players use bows when engaged in melee. Any thoughts?

Cheers!

[MariusH]

In RMSS, you're not allowed to fire a bow while in melee. You're "in melee" if you were attacked (by melee, of course) in an earlier phase this round, or i the previous round while at the same time someone has declared a melee attack against you this round (if I remember correctly) - if you're alos still adjecent to the melee fighter. In order to get out of melee, you must not be attacked by a melee weapon, or you can "disengage from melee", which is a 25% activity action, and gets you 10' away. This does not help if your opponent has declared "press and melee", in which case he simply follows you.

[Kritilit]

That's what I thought. But has anyone tried to allow missile fire while engaged in melee with an appropriate penalty? Say -75 or -100 to OB? I was considering letting missile into melee but didn't want to upset the balance too much. Anyone try anything similar?

[GrumpyOldFart]

My big thing wouldn't be a matter of penalties so much as what happens if you miss. Betcha there's someone else downrange.

[rdanhenry]

For crossbows and blowpipes this would be possible (though attempting to reload would be suicidal), but a self bow or a sling is essentially useless at such ranges. The arrow would be flexing so heavily as it comes off the bow as to deflect off almost any target and the sling would have to be used as a form of club rather a missile launcher. Unless your game is intended to be extremely "cinematic", use of missile weapons in melee should wait until the gunpowder era.

[Thom @ ICE]

Just out of curiosity - what about thrown missile weapons?  Throwing Knife, dagger, dart, axe, shuriken, hammer, etc.  IIRC, Melee assumes about a 5' spacing and a throwing knife at that range is normally perfectly viable, though you might be in trouble during reload.

[intothatdarkness]

For a thrown weapon, I think I'd assess a penalty for a moving target, possibly offset by a bonus for range. But when I had to deal with the question of missile use in melee, it usually boiled down to who was engaging whom. Common sense also comes into play. Would you really want to try to draw a longbow in melee when someone's attacking you with a bastard sword?

And even in the gunpower era, missile use in melee is problematic. You start getting into what Top Secret called Possession Combat and other things. I tended to use the Fire Phase A, Melee, Fire Phase B structure with firearms. With movement falling between Fire Phase A and Melee characters with knives, fists, and so on could close and have a chance to deal with an armed character before the second fire phase.

[rdanhenry]

Even throwing a weapon effectively is going to be difficult that close, but sure. I'd allow normal parrying of the attack, however.

[providence13]

I would absolutely allow a missile weapon in melee. Just remember that if you're wearing armor, then there is a decent penalty to your OB, which will hurt your DB. If you're not wearing armor and you find yourself in melee, you're probably going to die.

Also, you had better commit to your Declared Actions for the round. Changing Action is a... what, -40 to the altered action?

It could be possible that an archer is preparing a shot from above on a line of marching orcs below. What the archer didn't know is that an advance scout orc smelled him and has been sneaking up to catch the archer unawares. The archer is lined up and ready to fire (his declared action). The scout, jumps up from his hiding place and melees the archer.
If the archer changes targets, in an instant, that may constitute a change of action. But since the action is the same, I would let it stand. (Maybe with a -20 OB) However, the archer has probably not put any of his OB into DB because he had the drop on the orcs; why not use everything he could? (If he was lying prone -I'd give a bonus to OB for this- then there is no way he could use Quickness for DB.)

Ambush and Surprise rules aside, the archer is now in melee. Why shouldn't he get to shoot?
What if the orc missed his attack and the archer still has his weapon ready.
Other than %Act required, the type of weapon doesn't matter, IMHO. The archer could also use Quickdraw to nock an arrow with 0%Act, or even nock and make an attack if his reload %Act is low enough. Shortbows are easier to reload than Longbows. (My magic missile weapons reduce %Act reload by their magic bonus.)

Either way, the two opponents are in melee. One may have a melee weapon and the other a ranged weapon. But I see no reason why the archer shouldn't be allowed to shoot the point blank orc.

[MariusH]

Well, just goes to show how differently we all do things. I'd NOT allow missile fire in melee at all. Firing at that close range just doesn't work, IMO. I'd have to think a bit about throwing things though, but if allowed, it would definitely come at a penalty. Make sure to have melee fighters cover your archers!

[Zat]

I developed a range of 'arms specialisation' skills, initially to allow non-spell users something to look forward to as they level up.
One of those skills is called 'Melle-Missile' with which a combatant may attack with a missile weapon whilst in melee. Without searching through my stuff, I believe it has a requisit of 10 Ranks in the missile weapon and 5 ranks in Brawling and requires a hard mnv to activate (along with a few other modifications)

Solves a lot of issues and hurt feelings, but more importantly, it gives that heroic slant to my games. Think Legolas in The Lord fo the Rings movies.

[providence13]

Just as a thought..
Check out the range mods for missile weapons. They all start at 1 ft.  Long Bow 1-10ft = +20.
Light Crossbow 1-10ft = +15.
Short Bow 1-10ft = +10.

IMHO Just because someone is attacking you or is going to attack you doesn't mean you are unable to get of the shot.

Make whatever rules are required to have a great time with the game!

If I had a venn diagram showing short range mods and melee range, I bet the two circles would overlap.

[GrumpyOldFart]

Personally I still think the most important consideration is not whether or not you can fire, but what happens if you miss. Your downrange, pretty much by definition since you're in melee, is not clear.

[rdanhenry]

It isn't a question of getting a shot off or not, in the case of a self bow. The arrow flexes as it comes off the bow. If you go just by the rules, yes, it makes sense to use a bow in melee. You get a range bonus! But that actually should be a huge penalty. At extremely close ranges, the arrow will have so much flex and hit so far from straight on that penetration is virtually impossible. I have personally seen arrows (admittedly, target arrows with rather blunt points when compared to combat or hunting arrows, but quite capable of penetrating several inches into the same target) bounce completely off hay bales when fired from too close (or improperly fired from adequate range, for that matter). I'd say something like -50 at a minimum for that point blank range of the first 10' would be an appropriate penalty.

As I've stated, crossbows are a different matter, but you'll never reload one in melee. A sling essentially becomes an exotic form of club and an armed opponent can trivially disrupt your attack A blowpipe would work adequately, and unlike a crossbow, you could even reload. However, note that in no case would you be able to parry.

This completely ignores psychology, which is far from insignificant. It would require some specific forms of pathology not to have one's aim disrupted by the immediate threat of melee. Heck, even someone with a lack of emotive fear would have increased heart rate from the physical activity of dodging, which have a disruptive effect on aim.

[MariusH]

If you go just by the rules, yes, it makes sense to use a bow in melee. You get a range bonus!

Well, since the rules actually say that you can't fire missile while in melee, I have to disagree with that statement. By the RAW, you can fire at someone from 1', as long as you're not in melee (which is quite possible by the definitions of being "in melee").

[MariusH]

Also, you can NOT fire at someone 50' away while in melee, even if facing in that direction and your melee attacker is hacking at your back (again, this is by RAW, and I expect lots of house rules here, as in every other aspect).

[Moriarty]

At extremely close ranges, the arrow will have so much flex and hit so far from straight on that penetration is virtually impossible.

Any facts or links to back that up?
If it is true, then the traditional way for RM to handle it would be with a huge penalty, not disallowing it entirely.

Using missile weapons in close combat, even if allowed, seems like a bad idea, because you have no defensive options. No heavy armor, no shield, no parry, unless you allow 'OB/DB split' with missile weapon in melee which seems odd IMO. And during reload you would effectively be stunned unable to parry.

 I should think that the 'no defense' approach is the most realistic way to handle missile in melee, but I can't seem to find any facts to back that up either...

[Fenrhyl Wulfson]

From field experience with melee weapons and thrown weapons.

Firing a missile weapon or throwing a thrown weapon requires a given stance that prevents any defensive action.

When facing a melee weapon, if you do not defend yourself actively, you are hit. Period. It takes half a second for a novice fighter to deal a blow that will give him the time to ready a killer (a slap from the flat of a sword blade on the arm is enough). In the same time a trained fighter would have dealt a killer, an expert would be jumping over your cloven body. Not defending in melee is not an option.

If you want to disregard this, then the physics of projectiles come into play. Most thrown weapons rotate. Right after they are let free, they can’t do much damage (the target is truck by the handle) except for shurikens and some african throwing irons. Weapons like throwing spears, javelins and the good old fashioned rock are not rotating, darts too. However, they are lobbed and actually deal more damage when falling. At close range, most thrown weapons are either inefficient or lacking.

Missile weapons are another waltz. Crossbows could be of some use, but a knock can unsettle the quarel (and believe me, knocked you will be), arrows shot from some bows are swinging crazy before flying straight (powerful bows tend to send the arrows straight, less powerfull ones are another story, I’ve seen an arrow do a 360 after the string was released and then resume its flight, but I guess the D100 covers this kind of event). Other weapons all have their flaws. Basically, weapons designed to hit targets away are not that great to hit targets in melee.

So, while not impossible, I’d say they are, in our world, quite unsound fighting methods. People arming a throw or bracing a missile weapon are just sitting ducks in front of a guy with a meat cleaver.

I decided to give a +100 OB bonus to anyone meleeing someone that does not defend himself, on top of removing any quickness bonus BD. Since firing a missile or throwing a weapon prevents from defending yourself, you get the picture.

[providence13]

Yeah, check out youtube. There are videos of high speed cameras showing arrows absolutely wiggling out of a bow. They look rubber, but straighten themselves out within a few feet after they "bleed off some energy".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CO102jz8sFM&feature=related

I was thinking that a quick step back, before you fire could add a few feet, if needed. Of course your opponent can always advance, sure. I'll bet metal arrows don't wiggle.

The +100 OB vs a non-defensive target isn't a bad idea.

[Marc R]

Keep in mind melee range is a sphere, so you could be clinched chest to chest, or 5-10' apart in melee. . .some GM judgement would be required here.