Topic: RM Versions and Compatability

[Ynglaur]

I never used RM2, but did use SpaceMaster 2nd Edition before moving to RMSS.  I prefer the standardization, personally, but don't think it's any less modular per se.  The big difference does seem to be in skill bonuses at high levels, but I've found it's fun to put PCs in positions where they need to plan and stack the odds in their favor anyways.  "Charge into the room?  No.  Roll a barrel of flaming oil into the room.  Then, barricade the door and move on."  Who cares if the OB is +300 or +100: why chance the bad guys in the room rolling open ended?

[Zedul]

Bah, with a little imagination, RMSS remains just as flexible as RM2.  I still use materials from the old companions.

I can understand some just not wanting to change or feeling change was needed, but the design of RMSS is solid.

And it has stun removal skill...which I can do without truth be told.  In RM1 there was no stun removal and we got by.  Actually, there are a bunch of RM1 rules I still use cuz they just make sense.

I don't understand how you think there was no stun removal in RM1.

There are at least half a dozen spell lists with stun relief, including stun relief on 2 open lists even a fighter can get with an "A" pick.

Not to mention:  Januk-Ty, (3 rounds), Suranie (1 round), Vinuk (1d10 rounds), Welwal (3 rounds), Witav (2 rounds). 

+ Any Animist can turn those herbs into an anti stun potion/mixture that will prevent stun for an entire battle.  You just gulp one of those down before you enter combat and stun becomes a non issue. (Of course, addiction could become an issue...)

As to the rest.

Nowhere did I indicate that RMSS was not a solid system.  That was not my point.

My point was that it was a rewrite of a system that we all loved.  We were buying RM2 books, we were happy, then suddenly... "Screw you RM/RM2 people! We are going to replace your beloved game with a new system we think is better".

Which is why I know probably over a hundred people who won't even look at an ICE product again, and game store owners who won't stock their shelves with ICE products.  Before RMSS you could find RM2 in every gameshop in the greater Seattle area right out on the front shelves, afterwards you could only find RMSS products in the back corner of maybe 1 place you had to drive 3 hours to find.

You can't just burn your players like that, you can't force change they don't want.

The other RM groups we used to interact with all went back to D&D, then just stopped completely and probably drifted into online games.  One group I know started their campaign again and converted to Pathfinder.  In the gaming forum here in my home city if you post something about RM people run away screaming.

From an outsider looking in, and trying to figure out just what RM is now?  It's just a murky, impenetrable mess of conflicting systems.

This is the legacy of RMSS.

Even if you like the system you have to acknowledge the damage it did and understand that many former RM/RM2 players are just downright bitter...

I hit this site once per year for almost a decade before I figured I was even close to rational enough about it to start posting, and as you can tell I still have difficulty digesting what happened to the game I loved.  I came back here because it seemed like the new regime was going back to printing RM2 or even might produce new RM2 materials, that is the only reason I would consider shelling out my money again.

[Ynglaur]

I liked how they did the Combat Companion: it was written for RM2, but was adaptable to RMSS.  Adventure modules should probably have dual-stats in the future.  If ICE does that, maybe stores will stock them again.

[yammahoper]

No stun removal skill.  An outside agency was required to remove stun.

RMSS was a revision, and all systems revise.  What killed RM was the bankruptcy, imo.  Of course, your opinion is just as good my own, as no data exist to support either arguement (this being an old arguement).

FYI, I kept playing RM2 after the revision as I bought the RMSS and digested it.  After about 18 months I gave it a try...and liked it.

[Zedul]

No stun removal skill.  An outside agency was required to remove stun.

RMSS was a revision, and all systems revise.  What killed RM was the bankruptcy, imo.  Of course, your opinion is just as good my own, as no data exist to support either arguement (this being an old arguement).

FYI, I kept playing RM2 after the revision as I bought the RMSS and digested it.  After about 18 months I gave it a try...and liked it.

Right, I see what you are saying.  In general RM1 had very limited skills and required the GM to create skills of their own - it wasn't until RM2 and the Companions that we really got into the rest.

As far as argument, yea... what can you do?  I argue from the standpoint of personal experience and opinion... and of course we all know how "data" can be used one way or the other even if we had it so it becomes an endless argument and I probably should not have gone there.  What is done is done, and to quote a certain Steward of Gondor "stir not this bitter cup!"

It's off my chest and I am going to try really hard to not bring it up again...  hopefully.   

Maybe one day I will sit down and really try to run a RMSS session, unless of course the Rapture occurs first! 

[yammahoper]

lol at Rapyure.

Uh, if the rapture occurs, can I have your RM materials...err, or are we hanging out?

BTW, you take beautiful pictures.

[Usdrothek]

RMSS stopped the power creep of RM2. It doesn't mean it can't be flexible.

It's a solid base from which to game and no doubt add your own house rules.

I love RMSS.

[Marc R]

I disagree on the power creep end. . .There's plenty of power conduits inside RMSS, RM2 or RMSS can just as easily be played very low level (I've used RM2 for Indiana Jones like pulp, and played RMSS as WWII Call of Cthulhu) both of those games were super low powered compared to the usual fantasy game.

RMSS is one standardized set of RM2 options all used in one set. . . .there's not really a rule in RMSS that you can't tie back to a rule in RM2 or one of the companions. . .it's sort of like "This is the version of RM we were playing in the ICE Office". . .

And I agree with many of the comments above, in that it's not hard to use just about any RM2 material in an RMSS game, or any RMSS material in an RM2 game.

[GrumpyOldFart]

I've found it much easier to incorporate RM2 into RMSS than RMSS into RM2.... but I may just be showing my ignorance of RMSS too, I haven't played it much.

[yammahoper]

Call it standard or call it core, all games need a well defined baseline to operate from, the basic rules that are always the same.  Not that this has been much of a problem recently, but when a module is made, it will use the base line rules with notes of options.

To the baseline GM's are free to modify.  Supplements are all about optional rules.

[markc]

To the baseline GM's are free to modify.  Supplements are all about optional rules.

 IMHO this is why settings are important. This is so material can have a set number of options be standard and easy for them to use if they are from other sources. ie D&D base then Forgotten Realms standard options.
 IMHO a good setting is worth its weight in gold to a core game and its designers.
MDC

[Zedul]

lol at Rapyure.

Uh, if the rapture occurs, can I have your RM materials...err, or are we hanging out?

BTW, you take beautiful pictures.

I am a non practicing Orthodox (we don't believe in the rapture) so in the unlikely event that recently developed fundamentalist eschatology is correct, I automatically go to hell with all the heathen for being a mediocre to bad Christian who lacks faith and fervor.  So yes we will be hangin and so I will need my RM books!

Also to the below.

Settings are "everything".  When I used to run a Middle Earth 4th age setting, there were limited magic items and level advancement.  Level 20 characters were godlike.  In my current world level 20 characters are cannon fodder once they are out of the small towns and countrysides.

[pastaav]

But for those of us who really don't like or appreciate RMSS - we got dumped because they stopped making material for RM2 - it just stopped.  They cut us off.

My argument against RMSS at the time, was:  Why standardize a system that was created to free us from standardization?  That was created to allow GM's to custom build worlds and campaigns?

Excuse me if I am blunt, but nothing stopped you from buying new RM books and backport those parts you liked. My point is very much that RM2 and RMSS are compatible at the root level. The few adjustments so that RMSS scale better to high level without those game braking bonuses that the RM2 options gave are minor things. You claim to have been dumped by ICE while I claim the reverse, reality is that you stopped buying material that would have been trivial to port into your game. This made it harder to produce new material. Your reasons for doing such is secondary to the end result.

The thing with RMSS is that ICE decided the core system of RM2 was too bland or boring to attract new players. There were plenty of RM2 materials for sale, but ICE did not have the sales needed to sustain itself. Unfortunately they in the revision paid to little attention to the packaging of the product and we ended with RMSS that require an academical degree to parse. It was later revised into RMFRP, but that book never got a chance to live due to the bankruptcy. It is important to remember that old ICE went down because of the MERP license and not since RM had any inherent problems. The core RM itself was making profit even at the end and that is why I many others discussed buying the RM-intellectual property to ensure the game would survive.   

The modules for RM/RM2 are amazing and creative because they were written almost entirely from the perspective of story and the GM often had to do his own work and customize each model which is what turned me from a mediocre GM into a good GM in the first place.

 

It is also true that ICE had serious problems with getting a revenue stream steady enough to pay the freelancers that wrote those books. The reality is that if you are just looking for stories to port to your game then books and comics are of equal use as the RM/RM2 books. Gaming materials IMHO need to be ready to run out of the box if they ever should have a chance of generating a profit.

Don't get me wrong.   I am not saying RMSS is bad gaming system but what I am saying is that it feels like just a "Gaming System", there is no black magic to it.  It's dry and boring and, well, "standard".

Speaking of personal experience I would say the reverse. RM2 lived from the MERP fame, when RMSS came I finally had a game that itself could attract new players. I have had much better success with RMSS/RMFRP than I ever had with the core RM2 books.