Author Topic: RM Versions and Compatability  (Read 3087 times)

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Offline Zedul

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RM Versions and Compatability
« on: June 01, 2011, 04:13:15 PM »
Don't make me break out talent law and generate an amusing bit of high level RMSS bonus inflation. . .does anyone actually think that can't be done?  ;)

I concur that stun removal tends to be more of a problem than stun, so I'm kind of contrary to the gist of this thread. . .then again, I blame all stun removal woes on the wording of the Stun Maneuver skill in the RoCo2. . ..

I can't believe people are even concerned with stun, back in the day this was one of the things players most LOVED about the system! We used to think -  "Oh my god, stun!  That's brilliant!" 

Why is there an assumption that level 50 encounters "extreme"?... what has happened to this gaming system that used to have a reputation of being "EPIC".  I remember when the primary RM module (Court of Ardor) was chock full of level 50+ encounters right out of the gate!






Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: RM Versions and Compatability
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2011, 04:26:32 PM »
What happened in my case was that my world was difficult enough to survive in that making it past 25th was a major accomplishment. Most died between 11-20.
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Offline Marc R

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Re: RM Versions and Compatability
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2011, 05:41:11 PM »
I have enjoyed RM from dung-n-beans 1-5th, heroic 5-15, legendary 15-25, and some truly memorable great times at epic 25+. . . .

I've loved games where after 4 sessions and a lot of planning, we finally killed that thrice damned troll, but what can be more fun than being a Paladin, power dropping into heaven with the help of an archmage, much to the surprise of the other archmage that had stormed heaven and was locked in a fight to the death with the One God. . . .killing said villain, and thus, in actual combat, saving my god from the licking he was taking, and being re-substantiated to the material world in a pillar of light atop the holy symbol carved into the floor of the great hall of the Citadel of Light, interrupting a full meeting of the council of cardinals. . .

Epic can be a bit stale if you don't earn it, but starting that pally off as a 1st level pig farmer driven off his land by an invasion, that moment, long in coming, was ever so sweet. It's been a while since I've had the time to really play week in week out for 8 hours every Saturday, to build up to that truly glorious, well earned epic moment.
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: RM Versions and Compatability
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2011, 06:32:04 PM »
Quote
It's been a while since I've had the time to really play week in week out for 8 hours every Saturday, to build up to that truly glorious, well earned epic moment.

Right there with ya.  Our games now tend to be twice a month, or once a week if we are lucky.  Jobs and families and the moves that come with it only add to scheduling problems.  So our games aim at being 4-7 sessions so the next GM can get a game in.  The next one may be a level one affair, but it is just as likely to start at level 7, or 12, or 25th depending on the new story and character conception inspired by it.  For that matter, it may be a HERO, or an In Nomine game.  Long played PC's that reach high levels through endless nights of gaming are certainly a thing in the past for me.
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Offline Zedul

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Re: RM Versions and Compatability
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2011, 07:23:09 PM »
It's been a while since I've had the time to really play week in week out for 8 hours every Saturday, to build up to that truly glorious, well earned epic moment.

That moment is what I build towards... they come once every 5 to 10 years with tons of work in between and people never forget them!

We play 3-4 times per year, for 36+ hours over a 3-4 day period.  My players expend $5,000+ dollars a year, burn 5 to 6 vacation days per year, and fly across the country to sit at my table.  Wives and families probably hate me a little bit... yet I have a waiting list for each chair at my table.  Part of this is that experience was fun at level 5 when they started their characters, and now at level 50 nearly 360 hours of gaming later.

The story continues... if a character dies they choose from a pool of established NPC's and make that their new main character.  Each person has lost 1 character this run, but the story goes on.  An NPC was lost last session and the players were near despondent because she was so well beloved.  A truly outstanding campaign should be the same experience or even better than a great novel or a movie you see in the theater.

There are no sacred cows in my campaign, no artificial restrictions or rules where the GM tells them "you can't because!"  Our Warrior Monk wields an epic sword, our ranger has a legendary bow, our rogue has 2 matchlock pistols and a blunderbuss, our thief has twin blaster pistols she stole from a derelict ship.

They think about the game all day long, I get over a hundred emails per week, I had to get a text package on my cell phone just because of the game.

None of this happens because I don't have control or understanding of the game system. I have been told hundreds of times by players from conventions to book shop one offs, that once they have played in my campaign they can never go back to another.  I only judge myself or my campaign based on those moments.  It's the players that dictate to me if I am doing a good job or not.

I am a storyteller first, a judge second, and a mathematician third...

By god when a character dies in my campaign the players are as near to tears as if they had just watched the boy put down the dog in Old Yeller!  I think a character death should mean something and if it happens so often people are used to it, then they will stop caring so much and the carnage becomes just another statistic.  At that point we might as well be playing Battletech or Warhammer...  ::)

A stun is just a mechanic to serve the arc, and long stuns have decided the fate of entire Kingdoms and peoples!  In that context the game mechanics can mean little or everything...
« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 07:30:25 PM by Zedul, Reason: left something out »

Offline Zedul

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Re: RM Versions and Compatability
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2011, 12:45:22 AM »
btw... I did not mean to sound like a braggart or anything.

We live off the RM2 companions - particularly 1,2,3, and 5, which are the backbone of our games - and these tend to be universally maligned on these boards, and the high end game seems to be "poo pooed" as if we are not doing things right.  I share Yama's frustration on this...

I cannot put into words or even explain the immense amount of work and sacrifice that has been put into our campaign.  Easily tens of thousands of man hours - so you will excuse me if I get a wee bit defensive. ;)

I take my gaming seriously, but if you Google "Zedul" the first few results you get will lead you to my other "hobby" - and get a better idea of where I am coming from when I try to explain that when I do something... I apply a certain level of skill.

Offline Marc R

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Re: RM Versions and Compatability
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2011, 05:40:35 AM »
Not universally maligned, but I do know what you mean. . .I find them more like a box of mixed tools, knives, guns and plutonium. . . .there's loads of useful stuff in there, and also plenty of potential to cause harm. Taken from a perspective of an experienced GM, you can choose and sort what you want and when to use it. . . .and sometimes plutonium is just the right tool for what you want to do. . .but the kind of grab bag nature of those books means you need the GM to be picking and choosing, and at times tweaking the edges and corners to fit.
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Offline providence13

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Re: RM Versions and Compatability
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2011, 06:57:20 AM »
It looks like much of the material from RoCo's has been put on a more even playing field (watered down) to better fit the game; RMSS/RMFRP. You can see a lot of this in EssCo and ArcCo, IMHO.
But if the material works for you, great.
BTW, nice interview.
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Offline Zedul

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Re: RM Versions and Compatability
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2011, 06:52:14 PM »
Not universally maligned, but I do know what you mean. . .I find them more like a box of mixed tools, knives, guns and plutonium. . . .there's loads of useful stuff in there, and also plenty of potential to cause harm. Taken from a perspective of an experienced GM, you can choose and sort what you want and when to use it. . . .and sometimes plutonium is just the right tool for what you want to do. . .but the kind of grab bag nature of those books means you need the GM to be picking and choosing, and at times tweaking the edges and corners to fit.

That's exactly what I love about it and why RM/RM2 attracted many of us serious players away from D&D.  RMSS sent them all back...

It's like when Coke became "New Coke" - jeez, if I wanted a Cola that tastes like Pepsi - I would have just bought Pepsi to begin with! 









Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: RM Versions and Compatability
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2011, 08:42:18 PM »
I don't mean to sneer at uber-high level campaigns... but I think you'll admit it's a fairly rare GM with a party that level that actually made them earn it every step of the way, so I can't be too surprised that people tend to assume it's a "Monty Haul" type of game, regardless of what the reality is.

That said, I still contend that if a party, regardless of level or equipment, is seriously challenging Gods, then IMO either:

1. The Gods aren't really Gods, they're merely gods. In other words, you aren't talking about entities that throw ice ages, asteroid strikes, hurricanes, earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanoes, Pestilence Famine War and Death type of things because you've annoyed them. The gods may be able to wreck a culture or even a continent if they put their mind to it, but they don't do it casually and their influence is largely limited to the world they're on, perhaps only a small part of it.

or

2. There has GOT to be a few seriously nasty monsters you've missed.   :o

If #1 is true, what you're calling "Gods" I'm calling "Major Devi", not quite up to "Demigod".
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Offline Zedul

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Re: RM Versions and Compatability
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2011, 09:37:41 PM »
I don't mean to sneer at uber-high level campaigns... but I think you'll admit it's a fairly rare GM with a party that level that actually made them earn it every step of the way, so I can't be too surprised that people tend to assume it's a "Monty Haul" type of game, regardless of what the reality is.

That said, I still contend that if a party, regardless of level or equipment, is seriously challenging Gods, then IMO either:

1. The Gods aren't really Gods, they're merely gods. In other words, you aren't talking about entities that throw ice ages, asteroid strikes, hurricanes, earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanoes, Pestilence Famine War and Death type of things because you've annoyed them. The gods may be able to wreck a culture or even a continent if they put their mind to it, but they don't do it casually and their influence is largely limited to the world they're on, perhaps only a small part of it.

or

2. There has GOT to be a few seriously nasty monsters you've missed.   :o

If #1 is true, what you're calling "Gods" I'm calling "Major Devi", not quite up to "Demigod".

Yea, our seriously nasty monsters are level 75 to 150, our demigods are level 150  to 360, our lesser gods are level 360 to 1,000, our actual "gods" of which there are 4, are .... well, capable of wiping out planets so they are a non factor in the campaign outside of religion and lore and the secrets of the universe.

In 30 years of the campaign we have only had a few "seriously nasty monsters" go down, the demi gods and gods are pretty much untouchable but that does not mean the campaign isn't epic.

I counted it out... thinking about the different parties through the years, we have had 4 sets of characters break level 50, half a dozen or so break level 25, and roughly 75% of all characters created have failed to reach very far past 20 if at all... either there was a TPK or the storyline simply ended.

Yet I still consider it an epic campaign.

Our most epic character was level 115 to 120 when he died - and that character was transferred from AD&D and played on and off for nearly 15 years.  He was done in by his level 20ish wife who suspected him of fooling around on her.  Which just goes to show you... though you may be able to take on a demi-god, you are still no match for a woman scorned!

Final point:

We have totally digressed from stuns...   :o


Offline Marc R

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Re: RM Versions and Compatability
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2011, 10:01:19 PM »
Depends, you need to take the system into account. . .it's hard to make an impossible to kill entity short of simply stating "Can't be harmed" on them....or simply by not giving a god stats (I generally don't ever find the need to stat up actual gods) often at best what you confront is an avatar or possessed vessel.

So I guess you could state that said entities, sans character sheets, who exist as deus ex are truely gods. . .

In some games, if they actually do have stats. . . if one were to actually meet zeus and manage to attack him, roll a 00 on the crit. . .

I find that generally bad things happen when gods die in mythology though. . .

In said game above I described, I'd call the One God such a plot element that couldn't be killed via an attack. . .as was the archmage battling him, it was by choosing sides and attacking either that my pally and the archmage caused one to win and one to loose, by tipping the balance between the two and letting the other win.

As to the RMSS/RM2 thing, I don't think the comparison is fair, RMSS isn't new Coke, it's Coke, RM2 was Cola. . . With RM2 you could have coke, or pepsi, or RC, or whatever, RMSS presented a singular and very good expression of RM2. . .it didn't make it watered down, it just set it to a singular and fixed game, which if you're the game developer, is very handy in terms of actually writing supplements or adventures for. . .it's much harder to build anything bigger than an element for RM2, because there are so many mutually exclusive elements that you can't build big many sided game aids as the larger it is, the more elements it will conflict with and make it non usable for more games. . .RM2 is and was great, but it's a different game, slightly, for each GM and gaming group, while RMSS chose just one set of the exclusive elements and made it more likely that the game you play with me would be the game you'd play with Yamma would be the game you'd play with Grumpy.

It's not "toned down" it's just coherent and whole. . .which is a turn off to some people who would have chosen different parts to make the "standard" whole out of.
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: RM Versions and Compatability
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2011, 11:28:42 PM »
Depends, you need to take the system into account. . .it's hard to make an impossible to kill entity short of simply stating "Can't be harmed" on them....or simply by not giving a god stats (I generally don't ever find the need to stat up actual gods) often at best what you confront is an avatar or possessed vessel.

So I guess you could state that said entities, sans character sheets, who exist as deus ex are truely gods. . .

In some games, if they actually do have stats. . . if one were to actually meet zeus and manage to attack him, roll a 00 on the crit. . .

I find that generally bad things happen when gods die in mythology though. . .

In said game above I described, I'd call the One God such a plot element that couldn't be killed via an attack. . .as was the archmage battling him, it was by choosing sides and attacking either that my pally and the archmage caused one to win and one to loose, by tipping the balance between the two and letting the other win.

As to the RMSS/RM2 thing, I don't think the comparison is fair, RMSS isn't new Coke, it's Coke, RM2 was Cola. . . With RM2 you could have coke, or pepsi, or RC, or whatever, RMSS presented a singular and very good expression of RM2. . .it didn't make it watered down, it just set it to a singular and fixed game, which if you're the game developer, is very handy in terms of actually writing supplements or adventures for. . .it's much harder to build anything bigger than an element for RM2, because there are so many mutually exclusive elements that you can't build big many sided game aids as the larger it is, the more elements it will conflict with and make it non usable for more games. . .RM2 is and was great, but it's a different game, slightly, for each GM and gaming group, while RMSS chose just one set of the exclusive elements and made it more likely that the game you play with me would be the game you'd play with Yamma would be the game you'd play with Grumpy.

It's not "toned down" it's just coherent and whole. . .which is a turn off to some people who would have chosen different parts to make the "standard" whole out of.

Best description of the difernces between RM2 and RMSS I've seen yet.

It took me a while before I could accept the "new" codified RM, but I have not regretted the change.  However, I feel I am a minority.  Having once accepted the format change I am open to doing so again, which probably means I remain in the minority.

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.

Offline Usdrothek

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Re: RM Versions and Compatability
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2011, 12:05:23 AM »

Best description of the differences between RM2 and RMSS I've seen yet.

It took me a while before I could accept the "new" codified RM, but I have not regretted the change. 

Hear, hear!

Offline Zedul

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Re: RM Versions and Compatability
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2011, 03:11:28 AM »
RM2 is and was great, but it's a different game, slightly, for each GM and gaming group, while RMSS chose just one set of the exclusive elements and made it more likely that the game you play with me would be the game you'd play with Yamma would be the game you'd play with Grumpy.

It's not "toned down" it's just coherent and whole. . .which is a turn off to some people who would have chosen different parts to make the "standard" whole out of.

Best description of the difernces between RM2 and RMSS I've seen yet.

It took me a while before I could accept the "new" codified RM, but I have not regretted the change.  However, I feel I am a minority.  Having once accepted the format change I am open to doing so again, which probably means I remain in the minority.


But for those of us who really don't like or appreciate RMSS - we got dumped because they stopped making material for RM2 - it just stopped.  They cut us off.

My argument against RMSS at the time, was:  Why standardize a system that was created to free us from standardization?  That was created to allow GM's to custom build worlds and campaigns?

The modules for RM/RM2 are amazing and creative because they were written almost entirely from the perspective of story and the GM often had to do his own work and customize each model which is what turned me from a mediocre GM into a good GM in the first place. 

Yes it is harder to write modules that are not standardized, yes it is more work for the GM.  But I always thought that was the point of RM!

RM2 inspired me to write, to create, to make my own world... for the players to create their own backgrounds.  Now players are handed a cookie cutter and told to choose a "training package" - "Hey boy, do you want that gingerbread man with a bow tie, or a sombrero?" Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Don't get me wrong.   I am not saying RMSS is bad gaming system but what I am saying is that it feels like just a "Gaming System", there is no black magic to it.  It's dry and boring and, well, "standard".

RM2 felt like chaos mathematics, like if you really understood it the universe would implode, there was a sense of awe.  We waited for each companion like Moses expecting a new tablet from God.  And then it all just stopped...  ugh, worse, it never came back.  It was replaced with the same dusty algebra found in every other gaming system on the shelf.

RM2 being replaced by RMSS is up there with "Highlander 2" as one of the most profound entertainment disappointments of my life.


Offline providence13

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Re: RM Versions and Compatability
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2011, 07:25:33 AM »
On the Highlander note, even though they didn't die easily... they could still be stunned. :)
But I'm sure they had a few ranks in stunned maneuvering/removal.
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Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: RM Versions and Compatability
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2011, 08:24:24 AM »
RM2 is and was great, but it's a different game, slightly, for each GM and gaming group, while RMSS chose just one set of the exclusive elements and made it more likely that the game you play with me would be the game you'd play with Yamma would be the game you'd play with Grumpy.

It's not "toned down" it's just coherent and whole. . .which is a turn off to some people who would have chosen different parts to make the "standard" whole out of.
Best description of the difernces between RM2 and RMSS I've seen yet.

It took me a while before I could accept the "new" codified RM, but I have not regretted the change.  However, I feel I am a minority.  Having once accepted the format change I am open to doing so again, which probably means I remain in the minority.
My argument against RMSS at the time, was:  Why standardize a system that was created to free us from standardization?  That was created to allow GM's to custom build worlds and campaigns?

{snip}

Don't get me wrong.   I am not saying RMSS is bad gaming system but what I am saying is that it feels like just a "Gaming System", there is no black magic to it.  It's dry and boring and, well, "standard".

RM2 felt like chaos mathematics, like if you really understood it the universe would implode, there was a sense of awe.  We waited for each companion like Moses expecting a new tablet from God.  And then it all just stopped...  ugh, worse, it never came back.  It was replaced with the same dusty algebra found in every other gaming system on the shelf.
There's a lot I agree with here, and it defines why I have my own pet peeve about wanting _____ (whatever the next revision gets called) to "have high modularity". In the same way that I think the player is better served by doing away with 'Classes/Professions' and 'levels' and going directly from character concept and backstory (when possible), so I also think the GM is better served by a system that allows him to build his game from world concept and tweak the rules to match. Magic in my game may not work the same way as it does in, say, Echoes of Heaven, which may not work the same way as it does in, say, Shadow World. Nor may the finer points of stun and stun relief. Nor may the finer points of called shots, or round-by-round tactics, or martial arts, or fighting styles, or healing. Nor, at least from where I stand, should they have to.

In short, IMO "coherent and whole" is in many ways a bug, not a feature. One of the best things about ICE, and this forum, is that for all questions and opinions there is always a (often unspoken) "YMMV". The thing that makes your particular game worth playing to your particular group is that it has your own personal skid to it, in other words because your mileage varies.
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: RM Versions and Compatability
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2011, 10:16:13 AM »
Bah, with a little imagination, RMSS remains just as flexible as RM2.  I still use materials from the old companions.

I can understand some just not wanting to change or feeling change was needed, but the design of RMSS is solid.

And it has stun removal skill...which I can do without truth be told.  In RM1 there was no stun removal and we got by.  Actually, there are a bunch of RM1 rules I still use cuz they just make sense.
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Offline Zat

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Re: RM Versions and Compatability
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2011, 10:35:34 AM »

RM2 being replaced by RMSS is up there with "Highlander 2" as one of the most profound entertainment disappointments of my life.

^^ Pure gold

Offline Kristen Mork

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Re: RM Versions and Compatability
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2011, 11:02:42 AM »
Bah, with a little imagination, RMSS remains just as flexible as RM2.  I still use materials from the old companions.

I can understand some just not wanting to change or feeling change was needed, but the design of RMSS is solid.

And it has stun removal skill...which I can do without truth be told.  In RM1 there was no stun removal and we got by.  Actually, there are a bunch of RM1 rules I still use cuz they just make sense.

I don't think it even requires a little imagination.  I've incorporated War Law into RMSS, and many of the skills in Arms Companion, and spells lists from Spell User's Companion.  Just a little diligence to make sure that the spells are well specified (in terms of spell types).