Topic: How to lift stun-curse?

[Zedul]

Providence, the -X% or +X% was how RM1 worked, it's essentially the major variation between RM1 and RM2, the problem got into the evils of both "This is too much math" and combining rules lawyering on order of application. . .i.e. +10, -20, -15, +10 = -15 no matter what order you apply them, but if you apply some modifiers as percentages and some as addition/subtraction it makes a big difference what order you take them in, and can create large variations in results.

The gist of Yamma's point is what I was saying above. . .at +150 skill bonus, you can eat a -50 and still act at +100. . .if your total bonus is +25 or +50, you're screwed. . .the "no attack" penalty is a flat penalty that hurts a 20th level fighter as much as a 1st level fighter, while just using it as a penalty makes it a serious problem at low levels and at worst a major annoyance at high levels. I've played with it, and it works, but it's one of many factors in play that prevent 20th level characters from being casual about fighting with 1st level characters in RM.

I find your math a bit suspect there yamma. . .5/3/1.5/.5 vs 5/2/1/.5 does not a mountain of variation make. . .60 ranks (a rather large number of ranks) is +95 in RM2, and +110 in RMSS, even assuming a Fighter's open ended professional +3/lv on a 29th level character having those 60 ranks is +87 is +182, assuming +30 perfect stats gets you to +212. . .so perhaps if a 29th level fighter with perfect stats who has a +88 magical weapon is casual then +300 is "easy". <shrug> I'm sure if we assume the RMSS GM is also sleeping at the wheel one could come up with an absurd combination, but lets not base a theory of balance on "If you take an RM2 example that assumes the GM is in a coma, vs an RMSS example where the GM is paying attention, the variation is obvious." I suspect a vice versa example would produce proof of exactly the opposite of what you're saying, while a more balanced example would not show an extreme bias to either system. . .it's likely best to either compare two sane examples to each other, or two over the top examples to each other.

The last adventure we had, our party's primary fighter (A Warrior Monk... which in our campaign is very much like a Samurai) was stunned for a total of 6 rounds over the course of 4 engagements, and most of that stun came from a dragon.  Likewise he topped out at -50 on all actions during the latter fight.  This actually did become a factor due to the high DB aura of the Ancient Ice Dragon he was fighting.  Pre-fight his offense bonus was at +506  (He is level 49) and the Dragon's defensive bonus with Mass Bladeturn was +460, he was getting some crits in at first but once he hit -50 on all actions the fight went south quickly and we had a near TPK scenario.

One of the bugs we discovered with our combat database was that the Rolemaster crit tables are so inconsistent that MS Access has trouble parsing them and our - actions were not adding up correctly.  Early in the scenario it was missing the - % and total stun completely so we had to track it by hand.  Still it was a beautiful thing... in 36 hours of gaming and over 50 rounds of combat I had to consult the Arms and Spell Law charts less than a dozen times.

[yammahoper]

 I have had parties were the lowest level was 88th.  Again, level 30 is not high level.  Its right in the middle, at best the beginning of high level.

Perhaps you missed all the middle earth books with the level 80+ NPC's or the SW books with simular NPC's?  I had players that wanted to hang with the tough guys and fight the super baddies.  Only two parties ever got that tough admittedly.

level 80, 160 ranks, 125 (+35 with catagory) bonus in RMFRP, 145 bonus is RM2.  The big change comes in level bonuses.  Max +20 for RMFRP, unlimited in RM2 (when played as most people actually played the game).  So add +120 more.  Without stats, RMFRP skill at level 80, 180.  In RM2, 265.  Hardly noticable, right?

Even if you compare at level 20, RMFRP fighter, 120 skill (40 ranks at 65, cat bonus at 35, +20 prof bonus) were as RM2 has 145.  Again no stat bonuses.  Now minus 50 and tell me who is more liklely to succeed?  It is not bias, it's math.  I PLAYED RM2 FOR MANY MANY YEARS AND LOVED IT.  Please don't call me biased.  Angry over ICE's direction?  Yep.  Biased over the RM?  No.  RM is the best rpg, period, in all its versions. 

[providence13]

Knowing the history and changes of RM through the years helps. Thanks.

So "not being able to attack while stunned" comes from the -50 (which was a %, originally). This translates in RMFRP to "can't attack".
As melee attacks require 60-100% Activity, maybe stunning should just reduce %Act in RMSS/RMFRP games, instead of giving a penalty..
----Or it could do both.
This way, you could still load/fire a bow/sling... cast an instant spell.... or whatever you want that requires 50%Act or less, but with significant penalties.

But this won't work if parry is still a melee attack requiring 60%Act minimum. Hmmmm....
If I make melee require only 50%Act minimum (at -50 for using less than the 100%Act mx) everything kind of fits.
My head might explode now.

[GrumpyOldFart]

I never got to the extreme high levels shown here, but when I was playing RM (1&2), my rule was:

Must parry: You cannot attack. You may parry normally, maneuver normally, or cast non-attack spells with a range of "self" or "touch".

Stunned: You cannot attack. You may parry at 1/2 normal value, make stunned maneuvers, or cast spells with a range of "self".

Stunned and unable to parry: You cannot attack or parry. You may make stunned maneuvers or cast spells designated as subconscious.

It worked for us. YMMV.

[Zedul]

I have had parties were the lowest level was 88th.  Again, level 30 is not high level.  Its right in the middle, at best the beginning of high level.

Perhaps you missed all the middle earth books with the level 80+ NPC's or the SW books with simular NPC's?  I had players that wanted to hang with the tough guys and fight the super baddies.  Only two parties ever got that tough admittedly.

level 80, 160 ranks, 125 (+35 with catagory) bonus in RMFRP, 145 bonus is RM2.  The big change comes in level bonuses.  Max +20 for RMFRP, unlimited in RM2 (when played as most people actually played the game).  So add +120 more.  Without stats, RMFRP skill at level 80, 180.  In RM2, 265.  Hardly noticable, right?

Even if you compare at level 20, RMFRP fighter, 120 skill (40 ranks at 65, cat bonus at 35, +20 prof bonus) were as RM2 has 145.  Again no stat bonuses.  Now minus 50 and tell me who is more liklely to succeed?  It is not bias, it's math.  I PLAYED RM2 FOR MANY MANY YEARS AND LOVED IT.  Please don't call me biased.  Angry over ICE's direction?  Yep.  Biased over the RM?  No.  RM is the best rpg, period, in all its versions.

I'm with Yama on this one.

I would have said more but I made my RR vs. the online argument spell.
 

[yammahoper]

I have had parties were the lowest level was 88th.  Again, level 30 is not high level.  Its right in the middle, at best the beginning of high level.

Perhaps you missed all the middle earth books with the level 80+ NPC's or the SW books with simular NPC's?  I had players that wanted to hang with the tough guys and fight the super baddies.  Only two parties ever got that tough admittedly.

level 80, 160 ranks, 125 (+35 with catagory) bonus in RMFRP, 145 bonus is RM2.  The big change comes in level bonuses.  Max +20 for RMFRP, unlimited in RM2 (when played as most people actually played the game).  So add +120 more.  Without stats, RMFRP skill at level 80, 180.  In RM2, 265.  Hardly noticable, right?

Even if you compare at level 20, RMFRP fighter, 120 skill (40 ranks at 65, cat bonus at 35, +20 prof bonus) were as RM2 has 145.  Again no stat bonuses.  Now minus 50 and tell me who is more liklely to succeed?  It is not bias, it's math.  I PLAYED RM2 FOR MANY MANY YEARS AND LOVED IT.  Please don't call me biased.  Angry over ICE's direction?  Yep.  Biased over the RM?  No.  RM is the best rpg, period, in all its versions.

I'm with Yama on this one.

I would have said more but I made my RR vs. the online argument spell.

You are smarter than me and/or have higer rr bonuses!

All this said and done, stun rules as written work fine.  IMO, the stun removal skills become more a problem.  Stun is one of those things that can provide an incentive to surrender.  Many players have a hard time swallowing that notion.

[Marc R]

Don't make me break out talent law and generate an amusing bit of high level RMSS bonus inflation. . .does anyone actually think that can't be done? 

I concur that stun removal tends to be more of a problem than stun, so I'm kind of contrary to the gist of this thread. . .then again, I blame all stun removal woes on the wording of the Stun Maneuver skill in the RoCo2. . ..

[Zedul]

Don't make me break out talent law and generate an amusing bit of high level RMSS bonus inflation. . .does anyone actually think that can't be done? 

I concur that stun removal tends to be more of a problem than stun, so I'm kind of contrary to the gist of this thread. . .then again, I blame all stun removal woes on the wording of the Stun Maneuver skill in the RoCo2. . ..

PS...  The Arcane List in RoCo 5 "Subduing Ways" is brutal.  It gives the Archmage access to Stunbolts and Stunballs that strike as bolts/balls that substitute rounds of stun for concussion hits + give stun criticals.  Because of the sheer amount of stun involved this list will flat out decimate an opponent.

If you are an Archmage you want this list!  If you are a GM and you want a nasty Archmage villain, then give the villain this list and watch that villain subdue an entire party with one well placed Stunball.  This is a VERY good mechanic for having the villain emerge victorious without a TPK.  After subduing our heroes the villain can torture them or put them in prison, et and the players will hate/fear that villain forever.     I worked this for "great" drama once.

 

[yammahoper]

Don't make me break out talent law and generate an amusing bit of high level RMSS bonus inflation. . .does anyone actually think that can't be done? 

I concur that stun removal tends to be more of a problem than stun, so I'm kind of contrary to the gist of this thread. . .then again, I blame all stun removal woes on the wording of the Stun Maneuver skill in the RoCo2. . ..

C'mon, whats the point?  RM2 CAN'T be tweaked?  Do you actually think that can't be done?

[Marc R]

The difference being that I never said it couldn't. . .and the point being that while I said either system could be used abusively, you were saying that RMSS was the "Balanced and abuse free" version while taking shots of the most silly RM2 builds you could use for comparrison.

I'm the one saying either version can be bent to epic bonus scales, and you were the one starting trouble by trying to imply one version was twisted while the other was straight.

Don't try to make it look like I'm the bigot here friend. . .I think any of the above statements are true of both systems, and I wasn't the one trying to imply otherwise, indeed, you were the one saying such things. 

[Marc R]

Zedul, great point on the stun ball. . . .and indeed, without incapacitating stun, the NPC villian needs to either KO the whole party on hits without killing anyone (hard) or TPK the party.

I kinda find Stun handy, in that sense, that it's a step short of death that makes capture possible, when many players seem to want to play "Death before surrender".

Though RR to incapacitate spells do serve similar purposes, like sleep and such, though they are harder to pull off on high level - high RR people.

[yammahoper]

The difference being that I never said it couldn't. . .and the point being that while I said either system could be used abusively, you were saying that RMSS was the "Balanced and abuse free" version while taking shots of the most silly RM2 builds you could use for comparrison.

I'm the one saying either version can be bent to epic bonus scales, and you were the one starting trouble by trying to imply one version was twisted while the other was straight.

Don't try to make it look like I'm the bigot here friend. . .I think any of the above statements are true of both systems, and I wasn't the one trying to imply otherwise, indeed, you were the one saying such things. 

I did not read past the first sentence because I never said either system could or could not be abused via talents, bg options, or whatever.

But since you bring it up: take the talents provided in the RMSS book and nothing more, and yes, it is very balanced, just as RM2 bg options in the core books were very balanced.

The rest is figments of YOUR imagination sir.

[Marc R]

LoLs 

I love it when we agree so strenuously.

[Zedul]

LoLs 

I love it when we agree so strenuously.

I saw this on the discovery channel once:  "When nerds clash!"

[yammahoper]

Heeheehee...hugs all around.