Topic: Misfeels, Feels, Presence, Unfeel, Unpresence... confused yet?

[Zedul]

Don't know about you guys but this set of spells has elicited more debate and argument and GM heartburn at the gaming table than all other things in RM.  How do you handle it?

Through the years I have really played with multiple variants.  It never really covers this particularly well in the Rolemaster Rules I have found.

For a long while my players came up with this system:

Option #1:

A “Misfeel” with throw off a “Feel” – a “Feel” or “Presence” spell that is doubled in PP will get through the “Misfeel” if the “Misfeel” fails to save against the level of the “Feel” caster.  However a “Misfeel” that is doubled in PP will automatically fend off a “Feel” that is doubled in PP and so on and so forth.  Detect Invisibility, Perceive Power, Detect Magic and the skill Power Perception and the like are all foiled by the spell “Non-Detect”.

Eventually however I just couldn't live with it and the different levels of spells on different lists made it seem unworkable and not particularly balanced.

Option #2

A Misfeel or Unpresence gets to make a RR vs the Feel/Presence modified by the BSC of the Presence caster and the Mentalism RR of the person who is trying to "hide" or stay in disguise.

Thus in the future a person who really wants to be hidden all the time can merely focus on getting their Mentalism RR up (or in some odd cases Essence or Arcane).

Finally... "Inherent" Feels and Presence that come from stat abilities get no BSC and their chances are merely resolved on an open role, meaning that it is highly unlikely that they will be able to break through a potent misfeel by a high level nightblade.

What do you guys do?

(PS - Trying a new font)

 

[pastaav]

I think Option 2 is rules as written since it basically the standard rule about competing spells.

Though I must admit that I don't follow what "inherent" feels and presence are...

[Zedul]

I think Option 2 is rules as written since it basically the standard rule about competing spells.

Though I must admit that I don't follow what "inherent" feels and presence are...

Those that are gained from background picks and bonus stat abilities (A,B,C picks found in Comp III)

[Kristen Mork]

I have a very different interpretation.  The various Presence and Feel spells are Utility or Passive.  They don't give the target a RR to block the spell (only a RR to detect the spell).  Basically, these spells read the aura that's being broadcast by the target.  The Misfeel, Unfeel, Unpresence allow a caster to modify or mask his aura.  Thus, the Mentalist gets erroneous (or no) information.  I really don't think you need RRs at all.  (And, this is with a strict reading of the RAW.)

[Zedul]

Aha!  I knew someone was going to say that.  That is exactly one of the issue's I've always struggled with.

[Old Man]

IMHO (RM2/RMC GM here). Looks like Misfeels work like Illusions (Spell Law Classic pg 47). So they and Unfeel (whatever that is) fool Feels. But something else (a Detect or such) could find the Misfeel itself (and target can sense the Detect or Feel . Same in that Unpresence defeats Presence or Feel or Awareness (likely) but can be defeated by say seeing the target visually.

Ciao,
Old Man

[Marc R]

I agree with Peter and OM on that.

It's like rock-paper-scissors, while the feel has no resistance to misfeel, you can detect the later with a detect magic, or cancel or dispel it.

If faced with two casters, one using something like presence, while the other detects magic, you'd be jammed up (much like someone invisible faced with a foe looking, and detecting magic).

Throwing a non-detect on top makes for a nasty combo, since the detect magic won't work either.

[markc]

 I think some of the confusion comes in to play from the old MERP products in which IIRC the Rings of Power of the Elves provide double the RR bonus to avoid detection by the One Ring.
 I will have to get them out later on and take a look and get back to you on my opinion to your above Q's.
MDC

[Zedul]

I agree with Peter and OM on that.

It's like rock-paper-scissors, while the feel has no resistance to misfeel, you can detect the later with a detect magic, or cancel or dispel it.

If faced with two casters, one using something like presence, while the other detects magic, you'd be jammed up (much like someone invisible faced with a foe looking, and detecting magic).

Throwing a non-detect on top makes for a nasty combo, since the detect magic won't work either.

Nasty combo indeed.  I use to run it that way and we quickly found that Nightblades were invincible under those conditions.  Level 120 Mage?  Dead at the hands of a level 30ish Nightblade.  By the time Ambush is adding +60 to the crit rolls and you have misfeels and the ability to shapechange and do utterdark you can be anywhere at any time and kill anyone of your choosing.  Under those rules Nightblades can practically assassinate gods... which seems a little ridiculous maybe?

[yammahoper]

I agree with Peter and OM on that.

It's like rock-paper-scissors, while the feel has no resistance to misfeel, you can detect the later with a detect magic, or cancel or dispel it.

If faced with two casters, one using something like presence, while the other detects magic, you'd be jammed up (much like someone invisible faced with a foe looking, and detecting magic).

Throwing a non-detect on top makes for a nasty combo, since the detect magic won't work either.

Nasty combo indeed.  I use to run it that way and we quickly found that Nightblades were invincible under those conditions.  Level 120 Mage?  Dead at the hands of a level 30ish Nightblade.  By the time Ambush is adding +60 to the crit rolls and you have misfeels and the ability to shapechange and do utterdark you can be anywhere at any time and kill anyone of your choosing.  Under those rules Nightblades can practically assassinate gods... which seems a little ridiculous maybe?

High level targets need a constant AWARENESS spell.  This makes all the cloaking in the world meaningless.

[markc]

  High level Night Blades are Gods.
  BTW you have found one of the flaws my RM2 GM told me about, so much so that Night Blades were not allowed in his game, along with other troublesome professions.
MDC

[Zedul]

  High level Night Blades are Gods.
  BTW you have found one of the flaws my RM2 GM told me about, so much so that Night Blades were not allowed in his game, along with other troublesome professions.
MDC

Yes the way I read it unpresence foils awareness meaning that there is no defense against a Nightblade or heaven forbid a Mystic specifically developed as a magical assassin.  Hence I went to the option 2 that I mentioned.

[Marc R]

I was always fond of confronting people who pulled that with a lot of dogs, or later, giant spiders that used vibration as their primary targeting sense. . . .or just used creatures that can't be fooled, like Dragons, or unaffected by M spells, like the undead.

[yammahoper]

Awareness tells the caster the most likely action of all within range.  No misfeel or unpresence will prevent the spell from working.

It is available as a high Em pick in RMCIII.

[Ynglaur]

I agree with Peter and OM on that.

It's like rock-paper-scissors, while the feel has no resistance to misfeel, you can detect the later with a detect magic, or cancel or dispel it.

If faced with two casters, one using something like presence, while the other detects magic, you'd be jammed up (much like someone invisible faced with a foe looking, and detecting magic).

Throwing a non-detect on top makes for a nasty combo, since the detect magic won't work either.

Nasty combo indeed.  I use to run it that way and we quickly found that Nightblades were invincible under those conditions.  Level 120 Mage?  Dead at the hands of a level 30ish Nightblade.  By the time Ambush is adding +60 to the crit rolls and you have misfeels and the ability to shapechange and do utterdark you can be anywhere at any time and kill anyone of your choosing.  Under those rules Nightblades can practically assassinate gods... which seems a little ridiculous maybe?

Trigger, anyone?  I've interpreted the various trigger spells (Wards, Triggers, etc.) fairly broadly, and fairly powerfully if the triggering event is specific.  For example, "If a Sentient being attacks me, release the spell" (spell is Teleport, or Lightning Bolt, or whatever).  I'm not saying its easy to counter, but is doable.

Non-magic types are mincemeat, of course.

[Ynglaur]

Dogs, familiars, etc. are good warnings, too.

[yammahoper]

Non magic and magic types can rely on high perception against non invisible foes.

[pastaav]

The reason I think that there should be a RR is that otherwise it becomes impossible for a mentalist to use his presence magic to find a mentalist using Unpresence. Having two mentalist playing hide and seek and the seeking character being forced to use detect magic spells might work mechanics wise, but I think it is a poor fit flavor wise. Mental battles between mentalist should be about mental powers and not generic Detect Mentalism spell.

If we are speaking about rules as written the situation of spell vs counterspell is naturally resolved as an RR in Rolemaster so that should be the default. I can not recall any notes of misfeel, unpresence and similar being defined as working like essence illusions but I might be mistaken. A rules as written argument should IMHO be tied to what actually is written in the rules...

Speaking generally I think there is conceptual difference between information spells that read the natural aura of the defender and counter spell that are specifically designed to alter the aura presented.

[Kristen Mork]

I find the Unpresence spells to be so expensive relative to level 1 Presence spells that I don't have a problem letting them win automatically.  After all, you can't keep Unpresence up forever, and the other guy can just spend another 0 PP to ping again.  Personally, I've never had a problem with Unpresence being too powerful.

[Zedul]

The reason I think that there should be a RR is that otherwise it becomes impossible for a mentalist to use his presence magic to find a mentalist using Unpresence. Having two mentalist playing hide and seek and the seeking character being forced to use detect magic spells might work mechanics wise, but I think it is a poor fit flavor wise. Mental battles between mentalist should be about mental powers and not generic Detect Mentalism spell.

If we are speaking about rules as written the situation of spell vs counterspell is naturally resolved as an RR in Rolemaster so that should be the default. I can not recall any notes of misfeel, unpresence and similar being defined as working like essence illusions but I might be mistaken. A rules as written argument should IMHO be tied to what actually is written in the rules...

Speaking generally I think there is conceptual difference between information spells that read the natural aura of the defender and counter spell that are specifically designed to alter the aura presented.

I am of like mind with Pastaav in this one, not saying that is the absolute correct interpretation... but put me down for 60% over the line.