Author Topic: Paladin = Not usable?  (Read 8165 times)

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Offline Scorched_Earth

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Paladin = Not usable?
« on: May 05, 2011, 09:22:39 AM »
You can't cast Channeling spells while in full plate. Even though the very concept of a Paladin is a guy in heavy armor, (it's even the image *you* guys chose to describe the class in RoCoII). What's up with that?

I've finally managed to find players willing to try the game, and the first thing they come up with is this nonsense...

Should I just rule it that paladins, being "special" somehow don't have that metal limitation for casting spells?

Offline NicholasHMCaldwell

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Re: Paladin = Not usable?
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2011, 09:45:14 AM »
The Transcend Armor skill (Rolemaster Companion II and RMSS/FRP) can alleviate this issue.

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Offline Nders

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Re: Paladin = Not usable?
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2011, 01:37:38 PM »
RoCoI suggests not penalising channeling user for wearing armor and presents a new set of armor costs, for channelers, to go along with that line of thinking.

Offline Scorched_Earth

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Re: Paladin = Not usable?
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2011, 01:44:23 PM »
Thanks both!

Unfortunately i only have RocoII, but i'll go on a quest to find the first one ;)




Offline Zat

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Re: Paladin = Not usable?
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2011, 02:00:41 PM »
You may need RoCoI for the additional Paladin lists.

Offline NicholasHMCaldwell

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Re: Paladin = Not usable?
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2011, 02:01:23 PM »
Thanks both!

Unfortunately i only have RocoII, but i'll go on a quest to find the first one ;)

See www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=57833

for a pdf version.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

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Director, Iron Crown Enterprises Ltd
Publisher of Rolemaster, Spacemaster, Shadow World, Cyradon, HARP & HARP SF, and Cyberspace, with products available from www.drivethrurpg.com
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Offline providence13

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Re: Paladin = Not usable?
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2011, 10:41:31 PM »
In RMFRP, Paladins get +20 to TA (Transcend Armor).
You could also have a slightly better than average suit of armor that doesn't penalize them as much. Maybe it's blessed/only able to be repaired by the church.
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Offline Marc R

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Re: Paladin = Not usable?
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2011, 06:17:06 AM »
Paladin might run around in leather armor, I've had a few of those. . .or in Dragon scale armor, or some similar organic yet improved armor.
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Offline Ecthelion

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Re: Paladin = Not usable?
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2011, 06:29:34 AM »
You can't cast Channeling spells while in full plate. Even though the very concept of a Paladin is a guy in heavy armor, (it's even the image *you* guys chose to describe the class in RoCoII). What's up with that?
RoCoII does describe the Paladin as an armed warrior wearing armor. But it does not say "metal" or "heavy" armor. That's simply not true.
Quote
I've finally managed to find players willing to try the game, and the first thing they come up with is this nonsense...
It's not nonsense, it's just a different game than AD&D. Rolemaster simply does not have a 100% equivalent of the AD&D concept of a Paladin. If a good RPG for you depends on that, then perhaps Rolemaster is not for you. Rolemaster has a "Paladin" profession which is similar to the AD&D Paladin in many respects, but when wanting to cast spells the RM Paladin has to learn the Transcend Armor skill or restrict himself to leather armor. And the profession is quite powerful even that way, so that I'd not suggest to simply remove the restriction that the Paladin's spells cannot be cast while wearing metal armor.

Just my 2 cents

Offline yammahoper

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Re: Paladin = Not usable?
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2011, 08:21:27 AM »
Or just ignore the rule and let a paladin wear metal armor.  The church could assign a suit of special blessed armor, there is a spell list dealing with armor a paladin has to take, etc.

Screw silly rules.  Have fun.
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Offline Witchking20k

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Re: Paladin = Not usable?
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2011, 08:38:34 AM »
I'm with yammahopper.  Rules are guidelines.
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Offline Scorched_Earth

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Re: Paladin = Not usable?
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2011, 08:45:50 AM »
You can't cast Channeling spells while in full plate. Even though the very concept of a Paladin is a guy in heavy armor, (it's even the image *you* guys chose to describe the class in RoCoII). What's up with that?
RoCoII does describe the Paladin as an armed warrior wearing armor. But it does not say "metal" or "heavy" armor. That's simply not true.
Quote
I've finally managed to find players willing to try the game, and the first thing they come up with is this nonsense...
It's not nonsense, it's just a different game than AD&D. Rolemaster simply does not have a 100% equivalent of the AD&D concept of a Paladin. If a good RPG for you depends on that, then perhaps Rolemaster is not for you. Rolemaster has a "Paladin" profession which is similar to the AD&D Paladin in many respects, but when wanting to cast spells the RM Paladin has to learn the Transcend Armor skill or restrict himself to leather armor. And the profession is quite powerful even that way, so that I'd not suggest to simply remove the restriction that the Paladin's spells cannot be cast while wearing metal armor.

Just my 2 cents

I know, i know. I may have sounded harsh, but after spending close to 5-6 hours creating characters with my players, to only come at the conclusion that the whole concept of his character was ruined because he could not cast spells while in full plate... well... let's say it didn't go so well. ;)

The point is, i'm not comparing it to ad&d, but it just seemed weird at the time to have a Channeling profession that could wear Full Plate even though it prevented the player to cast spells.

Right now, i've ruled that some specialized class (such as Paladins and Clerics and so on) could get their armor blessed, thus bypassing the metal limitation, but other professions would require Transcend Armor skill to cast while wearing armor.

Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: Paladin = Not usable?
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2011, 10:38:05 AM »
I know, i know. I may have sounded harsh, but after spending close to 5-6 hours creating characters with my players, to only come at the conclusion that the whole concept of his character was ruined because he could not cast spells while in full plate... well... let's say it didn't go so well. ;)
Except he can cast spells whilst in armour. It's just hard and prompt to fail.

Quote
The point is, i'm not comparing it to ad&d, but it just seemed weird at the time to have a Channeling profession that could wear Full Plate even though it prevented the player to cast spells.
Uh, what? Each and any profession in RM2 could wear each and any type of armour. If you want, you can have your pure Essence spell caster develop proficiency in full plate and wear one in combat, whilst casting spell at the same time. The DP cost would be high, the ESF chances would be high, but it's possible!

Quote
Right now, i've ruled that some specialized class (such as Paladins and Clerics and so on) could get their armor blessed, thus bypassing the metal limitation, but other professions would require Transcend Armor skill to cast while wearing armor.
Your game, your rules but IMO this is an horrible way to manage the situation. In a nutshell, what you did equals to "What? Howcome Fighters don't have weapon skills? OK, I rule that some specialized classes (such as the Fighter) automatically gain two free weapon ranks each level whilst other professions would require buying the weapon ranks." Why make a special rule that only applies to some professions whilst the system already take the situation you described into account (by the way of the Transcend Armor skill). So, yes, Paladins are "required" to put ranks into the Transcend Armor skill to conform to the "Full Plate Paladin" image... the way a Fighter is "required" to put ranks in a weapon skills to conform to the "Fighter knows to fight" image, or a spell user is "required" to put ranks into his spell lists to be able to cast spells. In other words, yes, a Paladin can cast spells (with no ESF) whilst in armour, he just doesn't automatically gain proficiency in doing so... no more than a Fighter automatically gains proficiency in weapons, nor a spellcaster automatically gains proficiency in spell casting. The three of them have to learn (i.e. put DPs) in the appropriate skill.
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Offline Witchking20k

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Re: Paladin = Not usable?
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2011, 10:49:02 AM »
An alternate way to handle the situation is to penalize the Spell Casting Roll for wearing armour (transcend armour bought this off in increments of +5 i believe) or have the spells cost 1 PP more per "scale of armour above Rigid Leather....so, chain would be +1, & plate +2 PPs.
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Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: Paladin = Not usable?
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2011, 12:47:26 PM »
One word:

Vestment.
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Online rdanhenry

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Re: Paladin = Not usable?
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2011, 01:12:57 PM »
I know, i know. I may have sounded harsh, but after spending close to 5-6 hours creating characters with my players, to only come at the conclusion that the whole concept of his character was ruined because he could not cast spells while in full plate... well... let's say it didn't go so well. ;)
Except he can cast spells whilst in armour. It's just hard and prompt to fail.

Not in the core rules. ESF is an optional rule. To be sure, the Paladin is also not core in RM2 (although it is in RMSS, but then you're not using the one from RoCoII), but just because you're using one optional rule doesn't mean you are using another.

What one may say is that if you do want metal-armored Paladins, it is recommended that you use both ESF and Transcend Armor options as well.
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Offline Zedul

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Re: Paladin = Not usable?
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2011, 02:31:58 PM »
One word:
Vestment.

Don't uncomplicated things now.

Offline Scorched_Earth

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Re: Paladin = Not usable?
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2011, 03:47:22 PM »
I know, i know. I may have sounded harsh, but after spending close to 5-6 hours creating characters with my players, to only come at the conclusion that the whole concept of his character was ruined because he could not cast spells while in full plate... well... let's say it didn't go so well. ;)
Except he can cast spells whilst in armour. It's just hard and prompt to fail.

Quote
The point is, i'm not comparing it to ad&d, but it just seemed weird at the time to have a Channeling profession that could wear Full Plate even though it prevented the player to cast spells.
Uh, what? Each and any profession in RM2 could wear each and any type of armour. If you want, you can have your pure Essence spell caster develop proficiency in full plate and wear one in combat, whilst casting spell at the same time. The DP cost would be high, the ESF chances would be high, but it's possible!

Come on, you know very well what i meant... Paladins' cost for full plate is (if i remember correctly) 4 DPs per rank. Compared to other Pure and Hybrid professions (most are around 20 Dps if i'm not mistaken, again), it is clear that the paladin was meant to be able to wear it easily.
Quote
Quote
Right now, i've ruled that some specialized class (such as Paladins and Clerics and so on) could get their armor blessed, thus bypassing the metal limitation, but other professions would require Transcend Armor skill to cast while wearing armor.
Your game, your rules but IMO this is an horrible way to manage the situation. In a nutshell, what you did equals to "What? Howcome Fighters don't have weapon skills? OK, I rule that some specialized classes (such as the Fighter) automatically gain two free weapon ranks each level whilst other professions would require buying the weapon ranks." Why make a special rule that only applies to some professions whilst the system already take the situation you described into account (by the way of the Transcend Armor skill). So, yes, Paladins are "required" to put ranks into the Transcend Armor skill to conform to the "Full Plate Paladin" image... the way a Fighter is "required" to put ranks in a weapon skills to conform to the "Fighter knows to fight" image, or a spell user is "required" to put ranks into his spell lists to be able to cast spells. In other words, yes, a Paladin can cast spells (with no ESF) whilst in armour, he just doesn't automatically gain proficiency in doing so... no more than a Fighter automatically gains proficiency in weapons, nor a spellcaster automatically gains proficiency in spell casting. The three of them have to learn (i.e. put DPs) in the appropriate skill.

Well, as a limitation, as providence13 mentioned, if they ever get another armor, or have to repair it, they'll have to have it blessed again by their church. Which i feel is fair, considering there won't always be a church of their order nearby, and that Paladins and Clerics are specifically trained to channel spell in armor.

I've also left them the option to put ranks in Transcend Armor if they wanted to.

Also, your example is not completely accurate, in that a fighter has only to spend ranks in it's weapon to be able to use it, whereas the paladin has to buy ranks in it's spell list, and then again in Transcend Armor just to be able to use it.

It's as if i'm requiring every fighter to not only spend ranks in it's weapon skills, but also the material it's made of. "Oh! Using a metal sword? Hope you have that Transcend Metal skill, boy..." I'm exaggerating of course, but surely you can understand what i meant.

Offline Witchking20k

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Re: Paladin = Not usable?
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2011, 04:05:08 PM »
I would do whatever gets you guys playing; then when you familliarize yourself more with the rules re-evaluate some of them.  for what its worth.  I ignored trancend armour for years.  literally years.  But, I'd start every character with a +50 sword of demon slaying if it sounded like a good time.....LOL.....I'd also make them fight under water vs sharkmen mind you.....
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: Paladin = Not usable?
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2011, 05:42:17 PM »
I have ignored ESF and SCSM with Paladins since they came out.  Not even a special rule...most of the time. least ways.

Allowing EVERY class to wear heavy armor doesnt break the game (yep, we have tried it).  Nothing stops an E crit after all.

Seriously my freind, just let the paladin wear the armor just like you have planned.  All will be fine.  To reach a skill of 120 in full plate takes a LOT of ranks, he will pay for it.

Witchking, I like you more and more as the years go by.  Prost!
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