Topic: Question 2 - New RMFRP GM and Campaign

[watchmanbn]

Thanks to everyone for the Char Gen advice in thread 1.

In this thread, I'd like your collective help in the navigating the part of RM that is the most confusing to me: action declaration.

Based on my initial research, I'm sure a number of people will say they don't use it. at all But, assume for the purposes of this question that I want to use it RAW or very close to it. How does it work for you or what (minor) tweaks have you adopted to make it better?

It seems like the players will change their actions if I declare the NPC's first.
GM: "The orc is going to run away with the MacGuffin on the snap phase."
Unrealistic PC1: "I will still prepare my Fireballing Ways spell this round that will have no chance of hitting him because by the time I'm ready he will be out of the room..."
or...
RealisticPC2" Um. I uh Insta-cast Expeditiously Retreating Ways in case he runs away, I can catch him."

Or:
GM: "The Orc is exhausted and desperate to land a blow on you, so he's going to use his final breath to attack in the deliberate phase with 100% OB."
Unrealistic PC1: I think he's had enough of this fight, so I turn my back on him to help my allies finish the Zombie."
or...
RealisticPC2: "I just need to keep him busy a little longer until my buddies finish the zombie. I parry with 100%OB."

So, do you declare on paper so there are no spoilers? Do you trust the players not to use their knowledge of others' declarations? Or is it just not as big a deal as I think it is?

[GrumpyOldFart]

My knowledge of RMFRP is extremely limited, but it sounds to me as if you could avoid the whole problem by making them declare before they find out what the NPCs/monsters/whatever are doing. If someone has to have a written action declaration let it be you, that way only 1 person has to deal with it and it's the person who already expected to end up doing all the housekeeping anyway.

 

[Usdrothek]

Players declare their intended actions first. Then you start actions in init and phase order.

When the players see the Orc escaping, they can change their actions and incur the 40% activity penalty for doing so.

[Vector Z]

I've always wanted to use the 3-phase round system, but I've never had any players with the patience for it :/

So, do you declare on paper so there are no spoilers? Do you trust the players not to use their knowledge of others' declarations? Or is it just not as big a deal as I think it is?

It's not a big deal, but if you're going to use it, you want to make sure you're doing it fairly and efficiently, right? Makes sense.

I wouldn't leave it to the players' judgement then, only because you'll be burdening them with the responsibility of feigning ignorance. Writing it down might be your best bet. You could come up with a short-hand of sorts, so nobody has to write an essay every turn, something like:

N - prep FW (Normal phase, prepare Fireballing Ways)
D - 65 OB PC1 (Deliberate phase, attack with 65 OB against PC1)
S - C ERW (Snap phase, cast "Expeditiously Retreating Ways")

The possibilities are endless. If your players have the patience for this, I think you're going to have some very dynamic combat sequences. But if they can't hang with writing down something every turn, you may end up abandoning the 3-phase system after all.

[goron]

Hi,

you may want to have a look at Altman's Rolemaster Combat Actions Table

http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item190

[watchmanbn]

Thanks for the clarifications GoF and Usdrothek. "Players Declare/GM reacts" doesn't seem that cut and dried in the RAW, but its probably what was intended.

That method certainly does put the burden on the GM to 'be fair' and not screw the players by adjusting to their declared actions. I can see why, for some groups and GM's that would be a game-ender. For my group that won't be a problem. In fact, it will probably just provide a bit more balance, because trying to out-tactics 5 to 8 smart players is a huge challenge. Knowing what they'll do in advance gives me a chance to 'fudge' a bit, if I decide to.

It does, though seem lke it's going to lead to player kibbutzing at the table.

For example: If player A declares "I wait to attack the Orc until Player B delivers his Monk's Stunning Blow." Then player B is either going to deliver his MSB, or create strife. Does that come up in your games a lot?  I think I can work through it, but just hoping for insight and advice.

So Goron, do you use that Table as a way of declaring actions, or just a combat aid, like a GM screen/cheatsheet for the players?

Finally, Vector Z, thanks, and can I ask if you've used or seen something similar? I'm interested in learning from y'all experienced pros (or should that be "all y'all?" I only have S2/W2 in Fake Southern Accent...)

[Usdrothek]

I use an alternate initiative system than the simple snap/normal/deliberate phase thing, which I find has a lot of success. My group liked the feel.

It was proposed somewhere (in an ICE book? Guild companion? Here on the forums?), but can't recall off the top of my head where.

Roll initiative (2d10+Qu bonus). If performing a snap action add+10 initiative, If performing a normal action add nothing, If performing a deliberate action subtract 10 initiative.

This type of system prevents the slowest troll in the world (acting in the snap phase) striking before the quickest man in the world in the normal phase.

[GrumpyOldFart]

I'm interested in learning from y'all experienced pros (or should that be "all y'all?" I only have S2/W2 in Fake Southern Accent...)

Ah, well then here's a few lil tips from a genuine southerner...

1. It's pronounced "espurienced".

2. If you ever doubt your ability to sound genuine, you can always buy yourself time and confidence by tacking the phrase, "and all that happy sheeit" onto the end of nearly any sentence you can imagine.

3. There is no insult so ugly you can't be forgiven for it as long as you end it by saying, "Bless his heart". Example: "The guy's uglier than homemade soap and dumber than a box of hair, bless his heart..."

4. If you can think of a descriptive phrase ludicrous enough to be memorable, not actually NSFW or anything but just off color enough that you probably wouldn't say it to your kids... it's probably an authentic country saying. Example: "I tell you, we was busier than a cat tryin to bury a pile of crap on a marble floor."

 

[Zedul]

On action declaration we roll initiative first....

Initiative is determined by Memory mod/10+d6 for casting and Quickness mod/10+d6 for melee or missile.

The lowest initiative declares action first, including the bad guys if played by NPC's, and the highest initiative declares last - meaning he/she who wins initiative gets to react to what the initiative losers are doing.

Example:  Fred rolls a 7 and Bart has a 8, Fred declares "Full Attack", so Bart who has initiative can choose to use his full parry against the all out attack coming towards him.  This system makes initiative a very big deal and most players tend to make Quickness and Memory a high priority as a result.  Nothing worse in our game than an Archmage with Nether Law and a 100+ memory stat.

Phase 1 - Ambush/Stored Spells/Instant Spells (*)
Phase 2 - Spell Casting / Firearms (if you have them)
Phase 3 - Missile / Firearm Phase 2
Phase 4 - Melee
Phase 5 - Maneuver/Movement
Phase 6 - Static Actions/Next round prep
 

[Cory Magel]

There are somewhat opposing theories on the phases/initiative topic.

On one hand you have the three phases so that someone with an amazing Initiative number doesn't nearly always go before everyone else.

On the other hand you have the one long round where the guy with the awesome initiative can pretty much beat everyone every time.

The main issue is do you want the possibility of someone having a Super Initiative stat always going first?  I suspect for most of us that is a 'no'.  All the people I play with prefer the three phases.  The guy with the awesome initiative can still beat everyone if he declares in snap.  It's not 'unfair' to him because he has the choice.  Basically you're choosing to perform your action more recklessly in order to get it off before the other guy.  The one long round method can pose a problem, especially for GM's that aren't as experienced if they get a "Super Initiative" PC or NPC... it has more potential to be unfair to more PC/NPC's in my opinion.

[providence13]

Since we're talking initiative, we use a more controllable system than RAW.
You can add up to 20 pts to your init, but this is a penalty to the first declared action.
Or
You may subtract up to 20 pts from your first declared action and add this to your init.

(So we have one guy who records init and the +/- Init/OB for the party. Then I start counting down inits from ~35. They don't know when the opposition is going to act, until it happens.)
This is kinda, sorta similar to Phases, but the player decides the amount; up to 20.
The Magician should have a chance, not totally dice dependent, to lunge at a Fighter and hit first with a sloppy attack.
Do you want to act fast and sloppy or slow and precise or anywhere in between?
This and %Activity rule the day for us.

It's not perfect, but it works for now and they like it.
And yes, if you take a bonus on init because you're rushing a spell, the penalty can be very bad on the spell fumble table.

[Zedul]

It's just how combat tends to work - whether it be a gunfight, a boxing match, martial arts, et. the guy who's faster and has a quicker draw/response/swing has a major edge and usually wins the fight unless he is facing someone definitively more substantial in other areas.  I see no issue with reflecting that in a game.

But obviously if you have a 100 OB and your opponent has a 300 OB winning initiative only means that you have an opportunity to flee quickly lest you die!

Having gone through approximately ten thousand rounds of combat in the Rolemaster system I've tried dozens of variants and settled on this as the one that makes the players and GM the most satisfied and induces the least arguments. But that's just from this side of the fence, to each their own. 

[goron]

So Goron, do you use that Table as a way of declaring actions, or just a combat aid, like a GM screen/cheatsheet for the players?

I don't have a Rolemastergroup at the moment and haven't used the aid jet. But in my next group i will use it as way to declare actions and keep track of the declared actions. I hope this will also speed up combat.

[Vector Z]

Finally, Vector Z, thanks, and can I ask if you've used or seen something similar?

Sorry, I'm not sure exactly what you're reffering to  I've never used the 3-phase system, though I'd like to, for the added dimension. All I've really used is the 1 phase system. It's simple and comparatively fast. In fact, I often don't even have the players declare their actions. They just go when their turn comes up, as determined by initiative order. I don't worry about "changing action" penalties, and let characters delay their action if they want, as long as their place in the initiative order has come.

The main issue is do you want the possibility of someone having a Super Initiative stat always going first? ... Basically you're choosing to perform your action more recklessly in order to get it off before the other guy.

I'm not too worried about the "Super-initiative" guys. There are many situations where winning intiative won't save you That said, I agree with your assessment of snap = reckless, etc. That kind of added dimension is why I want to try it

[pastaav]

Just have everyone write down their intended action on a note and then start rolling initiative and then everything equals.   

[Marc R]

heh, pastaav is right, and I urge anyone who hasn't done it to try it at least once. Beyond curing the problem above, it causes very amusing results that reveal exactly how much hive minding goes on in player declarations, and a chaos bomb goes off in play.

(I've seen 6 players attack the same foe, jamming up in a ruck, while the other 5 foes were left unengaged to flank the crap out of them. I've seen all the arms users get initiative and charge, into the radius of the area attack the caster who goes last had declared. heh)

[Kristen Mork]

heh, pastaav is right, and I urge anyone who hasn't done it to try it at least once. Beyond curing the problem above, it causes very amusing results that reveal exactly how much hive minding goes on in player declarations, and a chaos bomb goes off in play.

(I've seen 6 players attack the same foe, jamming up in a ruck, while the other 5 foes were left unengaged to flank the crap out of them. I've seen all the arms users get initiative and charge, into the radius of the area attack the caster who goes last had declared. heh)

For RMSS, you could also check out Twilip (http://sourceforge.net/projects/twilip/), which is an action tracking web-application for RMSS.

[GrumpyOldFart]

I've seen all the arms users get initiative and charge, into the radius of the area attack the caster who goes last had declared. heh

...which reminds me why for several years I played a Magician whose "battle cry" was "Clear! Clear! Clear! FIRE IN THE HOLE!"

 

[providence13]

@ Peter,

"this project has no files."
Can't figure out what to do.. will try again later.

[Kristen Mork]

@ Peter,

"this project has no files."
Can't figure out what to do.. will try again later.

I guess I hadn't checked in a .war file; I have now.  But, even then you'll need a web application server (e.g., Tomcat).  Drop the .war into the webapp directory and you should be good to go.  It's my first foray into web app deployment, so it may be rocky.