Author Topic: Rolemaster edition question  (Read 2726 times)

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Offline daddystabz

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Rolemaster edition question
« on: February 27, 2011, 02:14:23 AM »
My local FLGS has copies of Character Law, Arms Law, and Spell Law I think for Rolemaster Classic.  I have seen a lot about Rolemaster Fantasy Roleplay too though.  Is RMFRP newer than RMC? If I bought those various books my local FLGS has for sale would I be missing anything really?

Offline kustenjaeger

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Re: Rolemaster edition question
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2011, 06:49:29 AM »
Greetings

If I recall correctly the order of publication was:

1. RM1/RM2
2. RMSS
3. RMFRP (a reorganisation of RMSS post ICE bankruptcy)
4. RMC (a reorganisation of RM2 with some add ons post ICE bankruptcy)
5. RMX (Rolemaster Express) - a cut down RMC starter

Regards

Edward

Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: Rolemaster edition question
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2011, 07:25:50 AM »
That timeline is correct, though Rolemaster has repeatedly had overlapping versions throughout the years.  The easiest resource to point you to is icewebring.com

This has the most complete product breakdown that I have seen.
http://www.icewebring.com/ice-products/
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Offline David Johansen

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Re: Rolemaster edition question
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2011, 01:02:31 PM »
RMFRP was prebankruptcy.  Indeed had they gone bankrupt before it things probably would have gone much better since the new incarnation of ICE wouldn't have been facing fans who had just bought a new edition.

Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Rolemaster edition question
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2011, 10:26:37 PM »
Heh, I don't really consider RMFRP new... the only reason it's hard for some to see it being revamped is because it really didn't get supported very well.  Timetable-wise RM is well overdue for a new edition.  And, really, I think it would be best the new ICE to start fresh anyhow.  But, since that would take a good amount of time, I'm sure we'll see the newest versions get halfway decent support for a while.
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Offline daddystabz

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Re: Rolemaster edition question
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2011, 12:02:57 AM »
Which version has the most classes available? RMC or RMFRP? Checking the info to see if I can find out.

Offline smug

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Re: Rolemaster edition question
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2011, 08:38:40 AM »
Which version has the most classes available? RMC or RMFRP? Checking the info to see if I can find out.

It's about the same in core, I think. If you include the RM2 Companions, then RM2/C has more professions by a country mile.

Online vroomfogle

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Re: Rolemaster edition question
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2011, 09:10:14 AM »
Which version has the most classes available? RMC or RMFRP? Checking the info to see if I can find out.

It's about the same in core, I think. If you include the RM2 Companions, then RM2/C has more professions by a country mile.

If you include all the Companions you could be right, but RMSS isn't that far behind between Arcane Companion, Essence Comp, Martial Arts Comp, Ment Comp, Chan Comp, School of Hard Knocks (which has a few non-casting professions).

In core, RMSS does in fact have 3 additional professions: the Paladin, the Magent, and the Dabbler (all three great additions IMO).

Offline David Johansen

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Re: Rolemaster edition question
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2011, 06:21:07 PM »
Subclasses that just swap out spell lists or reuse another profession's development profile don't count.

Online vroomfogle

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Re: Rolemaster edition question
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2011, 09:52:17 AM »
Subclasses that just swap out spell lists or reuse another profession's development profile don't count.

Well that's pretty much all the spell-casting professions in all versions then !   

Offline Cormac Doyle

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Re: Rolemaster edition question
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2011, 10:26:20 AM »
Having a million different "classes"/"Professions" that vary from each other by only the tiniest manner has been one of the banes of all versions of Rolemaster.

From my POV, the number of actual "professions"/Archetypes can be trimmed down to a relatively small list. The "flavour" variations should be added back in via some form of TP-esque mechanism.

Offline smug

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Re: Rolemaster edition question
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2011, 03:35:07 PM »
Having a million different "classes"/"Professions" that vary from each other by only the tiniest manner has been one of the banes of all versions of Rolemaster.

From my POV, the number of actual "professions"/Archetypes can be trimmed down to a relatively small list. The "flavour" variations should be added back in via some form of TP-esque mechanism.

I don't think that TPs represent, at all, differences in aptitudes (and RM professions are pretty much just aptitude templates); they represent synergies in learning. I think that a way to generate aptitude templates that wasn't easily breakable would be awesome and also impossible to achieve, which is why I really liked the profusion of professions except for the fact that some clearly weren't balanced (and I'm not a huge believer in the need for balance -- we're not all equal in reality, after all -- but there will come a point where it hurts fun even in many groups).

I'm not a huge fan of TPs, although I'm not against them as such, either, but I don't think they fill in the gaps between professions.

Also, I think that "profession" was a terrible naming choice, albeit one that dates back 30+ years.

Offline Grinnen Baeritt

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Re: Rolemaster edition question
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2011, 05:12:57 PM »

From my POV, the number of actual "professions"/Archetypes can be trimmed down to a relatively small list. The "flavour" variations should be added back in via some form of TP-esque mechanism.

I agree wholeheartedly, most of the time with other systems (I'm looking at you D&D) It's just another way of allowing powercreep and selling new products to the munchkins. Once you have a few base Professions and a character creation that allows for modifification of them in an easy (and logical and routine) manner then those additional source books can be used for campaign material, spell lists and equipment for the classes.

Offline yammahoper

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Re: Rolemaster edition question
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2011, 06:46:28 PM »
I agree with a few core professions.  Expand the base list that are learnable ala Channeling Companion and one mage profession could have 100 different looks. 
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Offline markc

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Re: Rolemaster edition question
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2011, 07:56:48 PM »
  I agree that many professions can be made with TP's and IMHO that is the way it should be done. I am not a fan of the RM2/C profession stream.
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Offline smug

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Re: Rolemaster edition question
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2011, 11:49:42 AM »
It seems to me that TPs are completely different to the core RM assumption that professions are aptitude templates; they describe what you choose to learn and reflect the synergies in learning particular things together, but their base cost is fixed by the pre-existing aptitude templates. That doesn't mean there should be a profusion of professions or that there shouldn't -- there should be as many as we think there are aptitude templates -- but the difference between profession being what we can learn easily and our actual skillset being what we chose to learn puts TPs on the latter side.

I always felt that, for example, there needed to be a non-spell-using ranger-type (never liked the rangers-casts-spells archetype); TPs don't make that happen, they just make it easier for a non-spell-user to accumulate the skills, for every member of class X. For TPs to achieve the same result as professions would produce a large number of TPs; at best, I think they approximate it but I think it'd be easier to identify the core aptitude templates (and in my opinion, it's short of some core archetypes that were added later, like a non-spell-using outdoors type, and a barbarian, for example; I also like the burglar profession for a thief who just isn't suited to wearing armour).

From my point of view TPs might be more engaging as an approximation if they didn't get complicated and numerous themselves. I think that it's a difference between RM2 and RMSS/FRP (although they appeared in RMs in at least the Arms Companion, which is my least favourite RM2 companion of all although not just for that reason) and the people that play them, at least in some cases. TPs as substitutes for other non-core professions would almost be a deal-breaker for me, it just doesn't fit how I understand Rolemaster and it's underlying ethos. The idea of TPs -- that there are synergies when you learn skills together, making the aggregate gain in each bigger than if the same time was spent learning each separately -- seems sound to me, but it doesn't say anything about character aptitudes, which is what professions are. The aptitudes are only reflected in different total costs, but that's because the individual skills have different total costs for different aptitude templates; that's OK where we feel that the difference between archetype A and archetype B is just a matter of individual choice about what to do, or circumstances driving decisions, but if we think that barbarians aren't just fighters who don't like to wear armour, then different aptitude templates are required.

I agree with Grinnen Bearitt's point about core classes with a modification system being a Good Thing, I just wholly disagree with him that TPs are that system. The modification system should act on the skill costs, in my opinion, to produce what are, in effect, new professions from the core ones (but either ad hoc or constrained; no need to publish large lists of professions, then, if that bothers people or, even if they did, they'd be better-balanced).

Offline David Johansen

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Re: Rolemaster edition question
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2011, 01:43:09 PM »
Smug, there's a scout profession in School of Hard Knocks.  They're not quite a ranger, fighter, or theif but they do fill the role of non-casting outdoors guy.

Offline Kristen Mork

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Re: Rolemaster edition question
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2011, 08:49:14 PM »
Technically, it's an Outrider, because Scout is a TP.

Offline smug

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Re: Rolemaster edition question
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2011, 02:54:00 PM »
Smug, there's a scout profession in School of Hard Knocks.  They're not quite a ranger, fighter, or theif but they do fill the role of non-casting outdoors guy.

Oh, sure, I was thinking of RM2, which has Bounty Hunter and which is pretty close; the RM2 Bounty Hunter is what I was thinking about when I referred to the later addition that was "non-spell-using outdoors type".