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Offline DangerMan

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Availability of magic items?
« on: February 23, 2011, 02:52:07 PM »
How available are magic items in your campaign / universe?

Could you just go to the "Kwik-E-Magic" and buy an item?

If yes, what items would be readily avaialble, and what would need ordering? If no, what would it take to purchase something, if one had set ones head on a given type of item?





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Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Availability of magic items?
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2011, 05:40:19 PM »
It depends on what you want. +5 weapon, +5 shield, +5 saddle? Sure, in civilized nations, it shouldn't be any problem if you have the money. +35 vampiric sword that shoots a Fire Ball five times a day and lets the wielder fly at will? That'd be a very special order.

No "Kwik-E-Magic". You'd go to an Alchemist if you wanted to order a specific unusual item or needed certain services (like wand recharging), but for a lot of things, the magic items are just the high end of an item type and you'd buy them where such items are found. A weapons merchant in a large town or city can be expected to have some low-end magic weapons, +5, +10, maybe a minor ability. He may also have some more powerful items, but he's not likely to mention them until he sees you've a heavy purse. Likewise, a jeweler may have a couple of magic rings or necklaces, locked up and shown to customers who can afford such luxuries. A seller of candles and lanterns may also have some Runes with light spells or more powerful items of illumination. A tailor may be able to set you up with a cloak of invisibility.
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: Availability of magic items?
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2011, 11:10:08 PM »
I like to use the unsupplied market table in GM Law when determining if a magic item is available.

In general, selling magic items is not easy, nor is finding sellers.  Most people won't really buy the lie about a magic weapon anyway, as only a fool would think a sword is magic rather than just very well made.  Obvios magis like a flaming sword gets much more respect.  Even so, your typical noble would have very little use for a flaming sword that cost years worth in taxes compared to a beautiful silver serving plate that 3x a day can produce fine breads, wine and cheese, an iten sure to impress any guest or visiting dignitary aND cost a lot less than a flaming sword.  Also, our noble could equip a small garrison and keep it well trained for a small percentage of that swords worth. 

All this considered, there really isn't much demand for alchemist to MAKE flaming swords when the rich prefer useful devices that will promote their image and toys for fun.  An enchanted outfit that repairs and cleans its self and protects the noble from chills and extreme heat, now THAT is something a traveling noble could use. 

Treasure Companion is a great read for more info on economics in a world with magic.
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Offline Zat

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Re: Availability of magic items?
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2011, 02:03:19 AM »
I have made magic items quite rare in my own campaign world, sure I have run campaigns in which there are 'those kind of shops' available in every major conurbation and even in some of the smaller ones, in which a character can go and outfit themselves in a vast array of splendid (proscribed, game breaking, meta-level) items, if they have the coin. However, this time around I decided that was not to be the case.

Those items that do exist in my own campaign world fall into a number of catagories, each designed to lend power where needed, drain the wallets of the party and add an air of excitement and mysticism. I also make use of 'quality items' that can add bonuses to various tasks, i.e., A Superior quality saddle that adds +15 to the Ride skill or a high quality Scimitar that adds +10 to OB. These 'quality items' do not hold the full benefits of their magical counterparts, for example they are definitely easier to break and they can't harm those creatures that require magical weapons to damage them, but they do add to the skills and compensate for the lack of true items up for sale in my world.

I mentioned categories for the items we do use; here's a rough outline:

One shot deals: Herbs (I have limited these to 'real world' plants). Rune papers, potions and other one shot deals that are relatively easy to create by skilled spell users. Alchemical potions (something I have created myself to add flavour to my campaign world, replace some of the herbs I have taken away and allow the players access to some of the one shot deals that may turn the tide of an adventure. Hopefully I will be getting this to The Guild Companion in the near future for you all to take a look at). It is possible for some of these items to be purchased but of course it would depend heavily on the availability of the resources at hand. I introduced a little trick into my own alchemical potions system to limit sale of such things, I made the usual shelf life of the potions just 1 hour (must be consumed within 1 hour of manufacture).

Player created items: There are some professions that can create their own items relativly easily, those that come to mind immediately include Druid Staff, Wizard Staff, the various Tartot Mage items and of course my very own Staff of the Magi, featured in this month's Guild Companion.  :) The one thing I do here to limit some of the power of these items, is insist that Power Point multipliers are not available, the spell adder option must be taken in all cases.

Minor Artefacts: Originally I had hoped to make all of the magical items in my campaign feel very special, Each would have it's own background story, intimate description and array of powers, however without taking on the guise of Stalin on a bad day, I knew if I went too far i would upset my players with the limits I would impose on them. As such 'Minor Artefacts' were born. All of my players are made fully aware that magical items are at a premium in our campaign and so it didn't take long before the background options tables were considered an easy chance to own an all powerful item at the very beginning of a character's career. I toyed with the idea of limiting the items to 'one shot deals' (as above), but then hit on something I had read many years ago (Johnn Four's Role-playing Tips mailing list, I think) about magical items that grow as the character grows (levels up). So every 3 or 5 levels these minor items now grow in power, from the +1 spell adder ring, to the +1 adder that casts Light 10' when the character is in darkness, to the +1 adder, that casts light and now emits 'Sudden Light' the first time the wearer is stunned in combat (per day). Contrary to my original idea of limiting magical items, I have given a little more power to them here, but it has also given them a hell of a lot more flavour. The overall effect here though was to allow my players the sense that although items are hard to come by, when you have one, it's useful and will get better as you progress.

Set Items: OK, so I stole this idea directly from some of those nasty computer games, however if slots in very nicely with my idea to allow magical items to progress in a way that is not linked to the level of the user. This method also allows me to create interesting back-stories, introduce new adventures and give the players a feeling that the items they do manage to procure or not of the static variety that would need replacing at later levels. Without going into too much detail right now, a character in my campaign began her career with a +10 scimitar (background option), I promptly gave it a name a created a background for it (that the character would have to discover). The sword is a part of a set of three items which also includes a shield and a helm. Each item has it's own abilities, but when used together other abilities (and higher bonuses) are gained.

True Artefacts (or Relics): A world low on magical items and I'm talking about perhaps the most powerful items in any campaign? Yes, low on the availability of magical items does not mean I have to be low on power. I absolutely love these things. Each with it's own background, personality,  array of powers and of course, will. Could you walk into 'one of those' shops and buy the One Ring? Well, I suppose you could if it allowed. These items are game changing, not so much there for the use of the players, but more so for the use of the GM in the weaving of his tale. In my current campaign, which has been running for almost 3 years now (mean character level around 14), the party has come into possession of 3 relics; one that will guide them through a vast quest in the distant future but has been laying hints and tips of what is to come for the last 2 years (real time), one which contains the soul of a defeated enemy which will come back to haunt them one day and one which they think they are using right now to solve a chain of events but in fact are being used by to create said chain of events.

Hope this helps :)



Offline Ecthelion

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Re: Availability of magic items?
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2011, 02:35:26 AM »
We allow magic items to be bought and sold. We use the Trading skill and the tables from GM Law to determine success/failure and the price, with modifiers for how special and how expensive the item is. More on this in the House Rules on my homepage.

Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Availability of magic items?
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2011, 08:11:29 AM »
I toyed with the idea of limiting the items to 'one shot deals' (as above), but then hit on something I had read many years ago (Johnn Four's Role-playing Tips mailing list, I think) about magical items that grow as the character grows (levels up). So every 3 or 5 levels these minor items now grow in power, from the +1 spell adder ring, to the +1 adder that casts Light 10' when the character is in darkness, to the +1 adder, that casts light and now emits 'Sudden Light' the first time the wearer is stunned in combat (per day).

For Rolemaster, I would tie this to ranks in Attunement/Staves&Wands (or perhaps in the case of items with a specific mundane function and a skill for that function, use that skill, such as the weapon skill for a magic weapon, armor skill for magic armor, lock picking skill for magic lock picks) rather than level.
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Offline Zat

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Re: Availability of magic items?
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2011, 09:04:53 AM »
For Rolemaster, I would tie this to ranks in Attunement/Staves&Wands (or perhaps in the case of items with a specific mundane function and a skill for that function, use that skill, such as the weapon skill for a magic weapon, armor skill for magic armor, lock picking skill for magic lock picks) rather than level.

Yes, a possibility, although I felt as the campaign progresses and levels increase, the power of the item should be synonymous with the general power of the wielder, not so much his or her skill with the item itself.

Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Availability of magic items?
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2011, 11:28:31 PM »
For the most part the only items a player character could purchase in something akin to a "store" or a common shop that would be considered magical would be one shot items like Potions, Scrolls, Runes (that I use), etc.

If they wanted something like a magical sword made they would first have to come up with a sizable payment then track down skilled: Crafter(s), Alchemist(s), Spell Caster(s).  Even then the Crafters and Alchemists involved might require the character to come up with some or all of the needed materials, possibly even the Spell Casters if material components are required for the spells.
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Offline pastaav

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Re: Availability of magic items?
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2011, 02:56:05 PM »
For the most part the only items a player character could purchase in something akin to a "store" or a common shop that would be considered magical would be one shot items like Potions, Scrolls, Runes (that I use), etc.

If they wanted something like a magical sword made they would first have to come up with a sizable payment then track down skilled: Crafter(s), Alchemist(s), Spell Caster(s).  Even then the Crafters and Alchemists involved might require the character to come up with some or all of the needed materials, possibly even the Spell Casters if material components are required for the spells.

The economy of one shot items is the most tricky one to get right. I think that for almost every setting will be true that there either exist expensive newly made power magic items or there exist expensive lost-art magic items. It often very easy to exclaim why such magic items might be traded out of curiousity or due to status of having them in your possession. I could easily economic wise explain why a hamlet might a magic sword for sale. There is simply not any buyers available, and the owner might keep it just in case but sell if the price is right.

One shot magic items on the other hand must be sustainable by the actual local economy. I would say that it is extremely rare in books settings that it does have a economy that can support one shot magic items. If we are talking about game worlds I think the same hold true.
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Offline Jacinto Pat

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Re: Availability of magic items?
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2011, 12:04:10 PM »
In my campaigns it basically depends upon the answers to 2 questions:
1.  Is this a high, low or medium magic world?
2.  What is the political/religious attitude to magic items?  I.e., do the authorities (and the man on the street) tolerate others having magic items or visibly using magic items?  This can vary from town to town (or even neighborhood to neighborhood in a large city).

Of course the players are excited when they can pop down to the shop and get a nice reloadable wand of fireballs right up until they realize that their opponents can (and do) buy the same thing.

Offline Rigby

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Re: Availability of magic items?
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2011, 05:50:52 PM »
I tend to restrict the purchase of magic items in my game. If players want to "buy" a magic item, they need to first locate an alchemist capable of creating the item, get the ingredients,  pay for the alchemist's services, and wait for the item to be completed. The majority of magic items in my campaign are found as treasure or earned as rewards. Selling magic items is difficult as well, since most merchants (except for large cities) cannot afford to buy them.

I do allow simple low level items to be purchased, but the PC's have to be in the right area (ex. large city). So far I have never had a PC complain in the 15+ years I have been GM'n games.

Offline ReaperWolf

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Re: Availability of magic items?
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2011, 06:26:24 PM »
HARP/Cyradon strikes me as a medium magic setting so charms and runepapers are readily available. Also the prevalence of alchemists and thaumaturges makes minor items commercially available, at least to the wealthy (which includes adventurers).

The one thing you do have to keep an eye on is how easy you want players to be able to sell unwanted magical gear. Players forget that the average town isn't exactly swimming in gold pieces so they shouldn't expect to get "fair" market value.

A shopkeep needs goods the average man desires and has little use for a +10 magical shortsword and even if he does he's not going to spend more than 30-50% of the item's value otherwise there's no profit.

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Offline Zedul

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Re: Availability of magic items?
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2011, 08:55:13 PM »
I have specifically 3 cities in the world where magic items are bought and sold, so in order for the PC's to go "shopping" they need to make the trip.  I have a table of availability which limits the amount of potent or most potent items in the store.  In addition I have an "attunement point cap" so the characters are limited to exactly how many items they can be attuned to (or possess).

It's a fairly easy system.  Base Attunement points = EM/10 + 1 point per experience level.  In addition racial bonuses can be added to that.  I typically give more base points to dwarves and elves than I do humans, and probably less to halflings. (Or in my world the races that approximate them).

I have multiple levels of Artifacts as obviously some Artifacts are far beyond what you would normally see, for instance a class 5 artifact is the type of thing that can alter the entire world or kill a god or demon, whereas a class I artifact may be great but is unlikely to do anything but give the PC a big advantage.


Class V (Legendary Artifact): 1 = 20 points per item  (Example: "Stormbringer" "The One Ring" Covenants "White Gold" et)
Class IV (Lore Artifact):  2 = 15 points per item  (Example: The 3 Elven Rings from Tolkien, The Sword of Shannara et)
Class III (Heritage Artifact*):  2 = 12 points per item  (Example: Excalibur,Artifacts in the RM companions, Vorpal Weapons)
Class II (Major Artifact):  3 = 10 points per Item (Example: +60 or better weapons with abilities, things with x6 mulipliers)
Class I (Minor Artifact):   3 = 8 points per Item (Example: Many of the Artifacts in CT I - ie +25 to +35 swords with lots of abilities)
Most Potent:  4 = 5 points per Item
Potent: 6 = 2 points per item
Moderate: 8 = 1 point per item


Offline Balhirath

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Re: Availability of magic items?
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2011, 11:17:34 PM »
How available are magic items in your campaign / universe?

Could you just go to the "Kwik-E-Magic" and buy an item?

If yes, what items would be readily avaialble, and what would need ordering? If no, what would it take to purchase something, if one had set ones head on a given type of item?
In my world (Which is high magic) you can go to the alchemist guild and buy magical items of the most common type.. which is items that can be made of an Alchemist of 10th level or lower.
There is an incredible amount of items that can be made with low level spells and most of them will not upset play-balance.
Some of them will however affect the world a LOT. Look at the "Warm solid" spell. It will warm an item for 24 hours. Now make that a Daily 1 Item and you will have an radiator! Up the level by one and use the Cool Solid and you can have a refrigiator.
Another level up and you get the Heat solid. You can actually cook on that without the use of wood or coal.
So with these spells alone, you warm up houses, keep food fresh and cook without the use of fire.
The advantages are obvious and in my world, those spells are the reason that the huge forests are still there, since a lot less wood are being used.
Now look at the heat solid spell again. If you place that spell on a container with water and activate it, that water will boil.. and you will have a steam engine that doesn't need fuel. Kinda fancy :)
I dont really like that in my world (I dont play Steam Punk), so I've made this rule:
"When used on land or in the air, the combination of heat and pressure causes a micro fissure in the planes, leading into the elemental plane of steam. This causes the boiler to explode and everything near it to be cooked alive as massive amounts of steam pours through the fissure for a few minutes until the fissure closes again."
So in my world they have steam ships for the big rivers and oceans, but none on land.

This is just an example to show that magic can quickly lead to technology, unless you think it through before you introduce it :)
I'm new here, but have played RM2 on and off for 20 years. :)

Offline RandalThor

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Re: Availability of magic items?
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2011, 07:55:31 AM »
I believe, in a basic non-house ruled RM setting, magic items would be fairly common. Why? Because anyone can be a mage. By not making a special requirement in order to even be able to learn magic (like a 20, 30, whatever-point talent that only a fraction of the population even possesses), there would be many able to do magic - even if it was only a half-dozen spells to give them an edge in their profession*.

So, without enforcing a reason for magic rarity, your common blacksmith would have spells he would use to smith better and quicker. (I like to reference a Turttledove series about a fantasy world undergoing a world war scenario, and the tailor characters using spells to enhance their tailoring by speeding it up and making it more uniform.)

That doesn't even include the non-human influence here; elves particularly are nearly always portrayed as being very magically oriented. Plus, their civilizations are almost always ancient, so they there would be a lot of history in which magic items would be made. Increasing their numbers over the course of thousands of years.

*I would think that any self-respecting - and looking to succeed - craftsman would start spending "DPs" to acquire spells right around the time they have 15 to 20 ranks in their professional skills. Although, in a setting that takes this into consideration, they could easily be part of a guild that begins teaching them certain spells almost from the beginning.
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: Availability of magic items?
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2011, 08:28:44 AM »
How available are magic items in your campaign / universe?

Could you just go to the "Kwik-E-Magic" and buy an item?

If yes, what items would be readily avaialble, and what would need ordering? If no, what would it take to purchase something, if one had set ones head on a given type of item?
In my world (Which is high magic) you can go to the alchemist guild and buy magical items of the most common type.. which is items that can be made of an Alchemist of 10th level or lower.
There is an incredible amount of items that can be made with low level spells and most of them will not upset play-balance.
Some of them will however affect the world a LOT. Look at the "Warm solid" spell. It will warm an item for 24 hours. Now make that a Daily 1 Item and you will have an radiator! Up the level by one and use the Cool Solid and you can have a refrigiator.
Another level up and you get the Heat solid. You can actually cook on that without the use of wood or coal.
So with these spells alone, you warm up houses, keep food fresh and cook without the use of fire.
The advantages are obvious and in my world, those spells are the reason that the huge forests are still there, since a lot less wood are being used.
Now look at the heat solid spell again. If you place that spell on a container with water and activate it, that water will boil.. and you will have a steam engine that doesn't need fuel. Kinda fancy :)
I dont really like that in my world (I dont play Steam Punk), so I've made this rule:
"When used on land or in the air, the combination of heat and pressure causes a micro fissure in the planes, leading into the elemental plane of steam. This causes the boiler to explode and everything near it to be cooked alive as massive amounts of steam pours through the fissure for a few minutes until the fissure closes again."
So in my world they have steam ships for the big rivers and oceans, but none on land.

This is just an example to show that magic can quickly lead to technology, unless you think it through before you introduce it :)

Rome had magnificant engineering ability, but little scientific knowledge.  They had reached an engineering level were steam power and gunpowder could have been used, but lacked the science to make it happen.  Thus no electricity in Rome.

You have a neat rule, but human ignorance and habitual living is more than enough to keep the middle ages alive and well.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.

Offline Balhirath

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Re: Availability of magic items?
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2011, 11:34:13 AM »
The chinese invented gunpowder around 9th century AD, mostly due to their medical use of the components.
Steampower as a concept were described by Heron of Alexandria in the 1th century AD, however I do not know why they didn't use it.. most likely a problem with making a boiler that can take the pressure needed.
Imagine Roman level technology and then add magic and enchanted materials and you got a whole new ballgame.

You still have a point regarding the human ignorance, but I just dont see it in a world with magic.
I'm new here, but have played RM2 on and off for 20 years. :)

Offline DangerMan

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Re: Availability of magic items?
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2011, 12:04:44 PM »
Steampower as a concept were described by Heron of Alexandria in the 1th century AD, however I do not know why they didn't use it..

They had slaves, they didnt need it.. At least that was what I read somewhere.. Extensive source, that "somewhere"...
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: Availability of magic items?
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2011, 04:31:52 PM »
I also like to think that just the presence of magic retards scientific advancements; take 50% (or more) of our world's scientific minds and shift them to the study magic. Don't you think that would slow down (purely) technological growth? I do.
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: Availability of magic items?
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2011, 04:33:20 PM »
Steampower as a concept were described by Heron of Alexandria in the 1th century AD, however I do not know why they didn't use it..

They had slaves, they didnt need it.. At least that was what I read somewhere.. Extensive source, that "somewhere"...

Chuckle...SOMEWHERE, OVER THER RAINBOW...(laugh point).
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.