Author Topic: Rolemaster Lite  (Read 17073 times)

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Offline Moriarty

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2011, 10:24:37 AM »
"Rolemaster? You mean Chartmaster or Tablemaster (nerdy laugh)?"
It's funny because its true. :)

I don't want to take the thread in a direction away from its topic or purpose, I have made my point, but I would like to comment on this:

Don't get me wrong Moriarty, I will never buy RM Lite, RMX, whatever you want to call the simplified version of RM.  I doubt you or many people on these boards will.  It's to attract the new customer.  We probably wouldn't like it.  But as such its entire purpose is to be cut down to a more basic makeup.
I believe that if you aim to produce something new based on a perceived reputation; what you have heard people didn't like about RM before, some of whom might have their opinion from others and not directly from their own experience with RM, and if you know that you, yourself wouldn't like the new thing, buy it, or enjoy it if you had it, but would rather have something else, then the project destined to fail.

It is my intension to highlight RM combat mechanics and critcal tables. That is what sold me on RM and those that I've shown in the past.
Ironmaul, what, in your opinion, are the strengths of RM combat mechanics - not counting the weapon and critical tables - compared to combat mechanics of other roleplaying games?
...the way average posters like Moriarty read it.

Offline kustenjaeger

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2011, 11:38:38 AM »
Greetings

I dug out my copy of RMX the other day and it is actually pretty good. 

For my own purposes it needs some of the material in some of the EA's (though I've only got 1-5) mainly to give a few more character options - that is a few more professions, Mentalism and a few more secondary skills, as well as being able to try to use some of your 11 PPs on higher level spells.

Our group stopped playing RM/SM many years ago for a variety of reasons but masses of tables was one of them, so more tables are not a surefire way to attract new - or even returning - players.

Regards

Edward

Offline Ecthelion

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2011, 03:33:46 PM »
I don't think that HARP's a bad taster, either, although one might feel that in moving to RM you'd end up giving up some of what you liked about HARP; it's more of a cousin product.
I also like HARP. But IMO it has one area where it is quite weak - and that's combat (not by chance there are 4 or 5 different combat systems available for HARP), where RM OTOH shines. And, to get players introduced to RM, a rulesbook where the combat system is more akin to the RM one would IMO be the better choice.

Offline ironmaul

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2011, 01:27:37 AM »
There are good things in HARP I agree but I have to side with Ecthy about the combat. I aslo don't consider HARP not to be Rolemaster either. I have been taking elements from all three systems and buy the end of it I hope to come up with something workable.

On a side note: I've had a quick read through of RotG. No wonder it was a big success, it's brilliant! I can't understand why the special abilities weren't added into RMSS they are fantastic story generators for a game. I think I'll cut all races from the list and only have humans as someone suggested here.



It is my intension to highlight RM combat mechanics and critcal tables. That is what sold me on RM and those that I've shown in the past.
Ironmaul, what, in your opinion, are the strengths of RM combat mechanics - not counting the weapon and critical tables - compared to combat mechanics of other roleplaying games?

To be totally honest with you, I have only palyed AD&D back in the day. Once RM came along I was content and very happy with it so much so I had no desire to look further. That's not to say RM is perfect but I believe/know it suits me. The d100 just seems to make sense to me...with percentages you can make it simple as you want or as complex as you want.






Offline ob1knorrb

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2011, 02:15:21 PM »
I've been kicking around an idea for what might be called a "Super Lite" version of Rolemaster, at least as far as character generation goes.
It just involves using templates that give stat bonuses, without even using the percentage values for stats.

Pick a race, that gives you certain stat bonuses, and maybe a few skills.
Pick a culture, maybe gives some additional stat bonuses and some additional skills
Pick a profession, get some additional stat bonuses and more skills.
Maybe allow for Training packages or something like that as well, and away you go.

Behind the scenes I'd probably be working with a set matrix of stat values and DP points so that you could actually create the same characters using full Rolemaster rules, but I've never really spent the time to work out the details on how I would do this.  I believe Run Out the Guns actually did use a system sort of like this, although in that case all the Characters had a base class of Fighter or Rogue or something.

The RMFRP Races and Cultures book, and the ShadowWorld Master Atlas 4th edition had some rules on splitting out Race and Culture that could also be mad use of in something like this.

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Offline ironmaul

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2011, 03:00:25 PM »
For a while I couldn't work out how they did it in RotG as the stats and bonuses didn't add up, until I read the small paragraph that stated they used the Rogue (levels 3-4)as a template with training packages.
Pre-gen characters would be the way to go but aslo an explanation on how to make your own would be essential too.

Offline ironmaul

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2011, 07:53:31 PM »
Considering HARP SF has 10 stat points to distribute between the 8 stats. I'm wondering for a RM lite would 12 stat points to distribute between the ten stats with a max of 4 points to one stat be over kill? or have it max at 3 points per stat? I'm thinking the later...

Offline providence13

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2011, 11:20:22 PM »
Remember  "Using the Rules without RM"... Well put that in the front of the book. Let them know that this ain't RM. This is a watered down version of this cool game that will only reach it's potential when you add some/most/all of the rest of the rules. (I don't use PP Exhaustion; there, I said it.)
But, you can play the "basic" set of these rules if that's as far as you want to go. When and if you're ready, the other ~280 pgs are waiting. All of the extra rules are optional.
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Offline ironmaul

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2012, 05:32:56 PM »
I know it's been awhile since I've posted on this thread but I'v come back to as I have found people curious about RM and I want to see if I can get the basics of this lite version in a solid format. My purpose is to highlight the combat/critical aspect that sold me on the game. I have since droped the idea of magic palying a role in this version(frankly, I don't like RM spell system at all).

Stat Bonuses and Development Points Assignment.

I've been looking through a number of RM systems (RMC. RMSS, MERP and HARP SF), I found that there's multiple variations of the bonus and DP allowcation which is understandable. I've come up with my own table and would like some feedback. The issue I had with some of the above mentioned systems is the upper and lower end progression of the scale, particulary the upper end with DP progression. Keeping with the format of the HARP stat cost table the higher that one develops the stat the more expensive it is...so there should be a greater bonus and DP reward. So this is what I propose below in stat vs. reward. It is based on the RMC CharLaw page 74.


Stat / Bonus / DP.

102 / +35 / 18,

101 / +30 / 16,

100 / +25 / 14,

98-99 / +20 / 12,

95-97 / +15 / 10,

90-94 / +10 / 9,

85-89 / +5 / 8,

75-84 / +3 / 7,

60-74 / +2 / 6,

40-59 / +1 / 5,

25-39 / +0 / 4,

15-24 / -3 / 3,

10-14 / -5 / 2,

5-9 / -10 / 1,

3-4 / -15 / .75,

2 / -20 / .5,

1 / -25 / .25.



Thanks for looking,

Rick.

Offline Fenrhyl Wulfson

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #29 on: March 03, 2012, 06:45:45 AM »
My feedback : it’s one more chart. I’d rather go for chartless mechanics.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2012, 07:00:22 AM by Fenrhyl Wulfson »

Offline yammahoper

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #30 on: March 03, 2012, 10:42:06 AM »
My feedback : it’s one more chart. I’d rather go for chartless mechanics.

Agree.  As few charts as possible as combat requires enough to make the system inheirently chart heavy.
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Offline Fenrhyl Wulfson

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2012, 05:04:16 PM »
As a rule of thumb, replacing charts by clever mechanics is a plus. Not only for a light version of the game.

Offline ironmaul

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2012, 11:29:09 PM »
This is just a foundation for the make up of pre-gen characters. My attempt is to produce something along the lines of "Run Out the Runs" but perhaps in a barbarian/Conan like theme.
It'll be a long process as other GCP commitments will have me busy.

I agree, less charts. In fact by the time I'm finished there wil be even less charts than whats found in ROtG. One thing I will be adding is the Vice chart along with a Superstition chart...just love that idea in ROtG.

I want something that I can quickly make up characters...even at high levels without much fuss. I have most of what I need...fleeced and adjusted from the best bits from MERP/RM/HARP systems ;)

Quote
As a rule of thumb, replacing charts by clever mechanics is a plus. Not only for a light version of the game.
That's the aim.

I'll more than likely start up another thread for feedback in the near future.

Disclaimer: This is in no way linked to ICE/GCP. These are my own mussings.

Offline JimiSue

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2012, 03:02:40 AM »
I personally feel that a lot of this thread has been focusing on the wrong area. Someone above posted (I think Moriarty) that if you remove races or professions, that is only reducing choice and detail, not making the game any easier. From my experience new players *like* choice and detail, but where the headache comes in is figuring out the math. When I advise players to come to the game with a calculator, I'm not kidding.

The trend with new games these days is for very rules light systems (e.g. 2 stats - physical, and mental; a handful of generic skills or spells; etc) so presenting hefty mechanics first day off is probably not going to win you many favours. I would:

1) Keep races and professions, talents and so on - players like all of that and it isn't very rules heavy
2) ditch temporary & potential stats, but keep some mechanism to allow them to increase at level up time
3) Slim down the skills list, including weapons. MERP worked very well at the level of having a 1H slashing skill, for example. The skills is where having a choice becomes intimidating, you don't need an enormous skills list to have a functional character.
4) Do something to the point buy skills scheme. I don't know how many times I have to explain that to new players, but you could keep choice and variety by having skills groups (e.g. combat, social, magical etc) and have each profession have a skill cost that applies to all skills in that category, so fighters would have 1 in combat skills, rogues might have 3, wizards would have 5, and so on. Spend double that amount for a second rank or something.
5) Simplify the mechanics for calculating skill totals. It is enough to have a skill bonus, stat bonus, 'special' bonus, and  profession bonus (and even that last one is dubious as it can be reflected in skill cost). You don't need to worry about skill caps, or diminishing returns - at low levels the game functions perfectly well without them.
6) get away from the huge amount of chart lookup in combat. You can develop some simple calculation to determine success (e.g. hits = the amount you exceed opponent DB by, divided by Armour Type; crits = amount exceeded minus 50, divided by 5, negative = no crit, 1-10 = A, 11-20 = B, etc - note those figures are pulled from the air, no idea if they would actually work).
7) Critcally important (pun intended) is keeping detailed criticals - new players absolutely love them, since most games do abstracted damage it makes a nice change. And gamers (even the proto-gamers we are talking about here) love that detail.

To engage interest from players used to simple, fast-flowing systems, you have to create a system that is simple and fast-flowing (really!). It helps if character creation is also fast but that isn't as important - what's important in character creation is that the time is focused on the actual character, not the numbers that make it work.

Also remember that gaming is an activity that usually appeals to a certain type of individual - imaginitive and above-averagely intelligent (yes, I know there are exceptions :) ) so don't be too afraid of providing choice and colour, as that will be appreciated.  If you can hook them into an easier system early on, then they will see it as a personal achievement to 'graduate' onto the more complex full version - much as, back in the day, we progressed from D&D to AD&D.

Offline smug

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2012, 11:36:25 AM »
In counterpoint, "Hackmaster Basic" isn't all that basic -- it's limited to the first five levels, though -- and has been pretty well-received (and the Hacklopedia could be the best monsters book ever, although it's not "Basic" but rather part of "Advanced"). Pathfinder's basic set, which was very well-received, limited to five levels but did also simplify rules; most significant, perhaps, it adopted a different format based on presenting the game to beginners (and had a level of presentation and design that I think would be out of reach for smaller companies).

I think that RMX was a good model for an intro RM game, although it apparently won't come back or even be open-licensed. It felt like Rolemaster and had some rules in (hit points, say) that were better than the equivalent in RMC. I liked the model of a series of transitional rules that could pave the way to RM2, but that's probably not everyone's cup of tea.

Making a Lite game, anyhow, looks like a lot of work, to me and it requires that the people making it are very familiar with the rules they're simplifying. It seems to me that we'd need two (perhaps similar) Lite versions, one for RM2/C and one for RMSS/FRP, at least unless we're going to have to wait for a completely new version of RM (which, when it happens, probably will want a Lite version itself).

Offline NicholasHMCaldwell

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2012, 12:09:21 PM »
I think that RMX was a good model for an intro RM game, although it apparently won't come back or even be open-licensed.

Given that we cannot ever publish it in its current form for legal reasons, there is no way that it could be open-licensed.

Best wishes,
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Publisher of Rolemaster, Spacemaster, Shadow World, Cyradon, HARP & HARP SF, and Cyberspace, with products available from www.drivethrurpg.com
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Offline smug

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2012, 02:19:29 PM »
I think that RMX was a good model for an intro RM game, although it apparently won't come back or even be open-licensed.

Given that we cannot ever publish it in its current form for legal reasons, there is no way that it could be open-licensed.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

I can't really comment, as you won't say what the legal reasons are. I've read it pretty thoroughly and didn't see any obvious fatal issues (ie, ones which wouldn't be fairly easy to fix) and I thought it was a work to which the rights were owned.

Offline ironmaul

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2012, 03:22:53 PM »
Smug, the reasons don't need to be explained but please take it on faith that it cannot be republished.

If you have ideas for RM lite, I'd be more than happy to hear them  :)

Offline smug

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2012, 03:50:18 PM »
Well, my question would be "which parts can't be republished"? In my opinion it's the best product out of ICE for over a decade and if, say, most of it were OK I'd have thought that the effort to make the rest whole would be worthwhile. As for ideas for RM Lite, they'd be similar to RMX, which I think is cleverer every time I GM it. If something had to be completely different because the original can't be republished, that'd be pretty tricky, given that a fair amount of it is the obvious stuff you'd do to Lite-ise RMC (indeed, part of the cleverness, I think, is picking a consistent set of those simplifications).

Offline arakish

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #39 on: March 04, 2012, 06:30:23 PM »
My attempt is to produce something along the lines of "Run Out the Runs" but perhaps in a barbarian/Conan like theme.

Now that would be a messy campaign.  ;D  :o

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