Author Topic: Rolemaster Lite  (Read 17075 times)

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Offline ironmaul

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Rolemaster Lite
« on: January 21, 2011, 09:56:32 PM »
There has been talk about a more streamlined version of RM for an entry level for new players simular to RotG and ME RP. So I thought this would be a good place to express ideas and thoughts on the matter. In my mind it's not what to add but perhaps what to leave out. And also what good elements from other existing RM systems to add. I personally have RMC, RMSS and HARP to gleam ideas and info from. I'm not a rules lawyer so I won't have all the answers but with more imput from others will help.

Stats: For me you would still keep the 10 stats but leave out the potentials. I'd give 660 points to buy a characters stats using the HARP stat cost table.

Stat Bonus: I believe the stat bonus progression in HARP is the best out of all systems.

Development points: Grant a 1st level character the 100 DP as in HARP and the fixed 50 DP/level after that. I like this idea, makes it easy to make higher level charactes from scratch, especially if you use the Maximum Rank per Level table in HARP.

Hits: I like the base hit total(BHT) and the maximum hit total for a race in RMC but that's where it ends. I'd more than likly use Co + SD + skill rank bonus + BHT. I'm not sure on what I'd use as a Body Development skill rank bonus yet, probably RMSS race BD bonuses...?

Races: Human, Dwarf, Halflings and I guess we have to have those pansy Elves too.

Race Abilities: I'm not sure on this one, feel free to add your thoughts. But if it came to the crunch I'd probably go with RMSS.

Background Options Yep, have to add them.

Professions: Fighter,Thief, Rogue, Cleric and Mage.

Skill Progression Bonus: Going the RMC way is the easier option.

Anyway that's all I have for now, feel free to add your thoughts.


Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2011, 11:15:11 PM »
As much as I like Background Options and Talents and will gladly spent hours making a character... skip them in RM Lite.  The point of RM Lite would be to get them used to the basics of the system and Background Options will complicate that.
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2011, 11:47:23 PM »
Even old RM had some talents.  A limited number would be a good idea.  Players and GM's like some diversity.

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Offline ironmaul

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2011, 12:31:19 AM »
As much as I like Background Options and Talents and will gladly spent hours making a character... skip them in RM Lite.  The point of RM Lite would be to get them used to the basics of the system and Background Options will complicate that.
Cory, I understand where your coming from and I agree with you to a point. Looking at RMC BG options I think perhaps choosing just a few from the Special Item(non magical), Special Status and extra Language options may not be too bad. I'd drop the Special Abilities, Set Options and Special Wealth catagories. I think perhaps if you just stuck to three BG options above it wouldn't interfer to much with mechanics.

Cory, would you tolerate a few choice BG options from the Item, Status and Language list if they where perhaps helpful in an introductry adventure scenario?

Offline ictus

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2011, 03:19:42 AM »
I'd leave out much more than was put in.

Look at the absolute minimum to make the game playable.

Stats: Yes
races: yes
Skills: Yes but far fewer. perhaps just the base ones from RM1
Professions: maybe, but just 4 or 5
Magic: just a few simple lists.
Combat: 4 or 5 tables like Me Rp



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Offline Ecthelion

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2011, 05:21:29 AM »
Even old RM had some talents.  A limited number would be a good idea.  Players and GM's like some diversity.
Yes, even ME RP had some background options.

Offline Moriarty

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2011, 06:55:07 AM »
I respectfully disagree with the entire Lite/Express/Basics approach if it means leaving out most of what Rolemaster for me is all about: options.

It has been tried with RMX (and I dare ask: does anyone here remember RM: The Basics?) with, let's just say, limited succes. The main reason for my concern however is that these approaches, the way they have been executed in the past, always remove details and options while leaving the rules more or less the same, which in my opinion is the cardinal mistake to make when trying to clean up and make Rolemaster more beginner-friendly. I would never prefer a game with basically the same old rules but fewer options, and I don't understand why new players would want that either. I could be wrong, but I think new players should know right away what the game has to offer, and Rolemaster is about detail and options, and lots them.

Why only offer a few basic professions? Professions are not rules, they are detail. The only rule in play here is 'choose a profession'. The game doesn't get any easier to play if we offer players fewer choices, it only becomes less interesting.

Why only offer a few basic weapon tables? Weapon tables are not rules, they are detail, and are perhaps Rolemasters strongest and most distinguishing feature. Give new players an Arms Law book full of weapon and critical tables, and they will love it. I know I did. Again, no extra rules added, only options.

Why offer fewer spells lists and only to level 10 and deprive players of choices and a glimpse of the power that could await them in a distant future?
...the way average posters like Moriarty read it.

Offline smug

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2011, 07:44:37 AM »
What was actually wrong with RMX? ICE still own it.

Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2011, 09:53:23 AM »
Yes, Aurigas/ICE owns RMX and all other RM versions (except the Middle Earth version).
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2011, 10:27:53 AM »
I suppose a few basic options wouldn't be bad just to introduce the idea.

It has been tried with RMX (and I dare ask: does anyone here remember RM: The Basics?) with, let's just say, limited succes.
The problem there is Mjolnir did nothing to try and advertise or market the product, let alone any of the others.  Doesn't matter how good something is if no one knows it exists.

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I could be wrong, but I think new players should know right away what the game has to offer, and Rolemaster is about detail and options, and lots them.
The past criticism leveled at Rolemaster has been that it is too detailed, so a basic version targeting new customers has to take that into account.  Although a small case can be made that ICE will be targeting NEW players (that weren't necessarily the ones that criticized RM in the past) there is still a left-over reputation that will need to be overcome.

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Why only offer a few basic professions? Professions are not rules, they are detail. The only rule in play here is 'choose a profession'. The game doesn't get any easier to play if we offer players fewer choices, it only becomes less interesting.
"It takes way too long to make a character in Rolemaster..."

More professions equaling more choice means players take longer to make up their minds, mainly due to the fact that there will be somewhat subtle differences between professions that they do not yet grasp such as long term skill costs and spell selection.  They will try to learn those things and weigh them out before making a choice, which will drag out character creation.


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Why only offer a few basic weapon tables? Weapon tables are not rules, they are detail, and are perhaps Rolemasters strongest and most distinguishing feature. Give new players an Arms Law book full of weapon and critical tables, and they will love it. I know I did. Again, no extra rules added, only options.
"Rolemaster? You mean Chartmaster or Tablemaster (nerdy laugh)?"

Again, one of the primary criticisms you hear about Rolemaster.


Quote
Why offer fewer spells lists and only to level 10 and deprive players of choices and a glimpse of the power that could await them in a distant future?
Spell lists need to be offered through level 20 at least in my opinion.  Save levels 21-50 for the expanded books.

Don't get me wrong Moriarty, I will never buy RM Lite, RMX, whatever you want to call the simplified version of RM.  I doubt you or many people on these boards will.  It's to attract the new customer.  We probably wouldn't like it.  But as such its entire purpose is to be cut down to a more basic makeup.
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Offline Tolen

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2011, 10:33:30 AM »
The one thing that bugs me the most about RMFRP is that the spell lists only go to level 10 in the core book.  That virtually guarantees I will have to buy another book just to get the complete lists, even if they are the basic lists.  Moreover, most of the lists only take one page when fully formed.

Maybe using fewer lists would work, but I wouldn't like to see stripped lists.
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Offline smug

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2011, 11:44:07 AM »
Don't get me wrong Moriarty, I will never buy RM Lite, RMX, whatever you want to call the simplified version of RM.  I doubt you or many people on these boards will.  It's to attract the new customer.  We probably wouldn't like it.  But as such its entire purpose is to be cut down to a more basic makeup.

I have the RMX .pdfs and am buying some hard copies to help new players get into it. I just hope the RMX Additions come back soon, so I can have a transition path to full-blown RMC.

Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2011, 02:36:34 PM »
I don't see how any Rolemaster Lite can ever fill the role that MERP once did, but if you're going to cut Rolemaster down, it needs to stay highly detailed in at least one area. I think that area should be combat (basically, Rolemaster Lite would be Arms Law+). The old model won't work:

1. Your Lite version needs to display the strengths of your system. Flexible character development used to be a Rolemaster strength, but these days even D&D has character customization out of the box. Thanks to the charts and table, it still has rich detail with simple rules.

2. You need something to sell people on your Lite version. Crits have always been a key advertising point for Rolemaster, so why not focus there? It can't come close to replacing the best license ever for a fantasy game, but it might bring some people in. "We've watered down a game whose whole reputation is based on its rich options and detail" sure isn't going to be much of a come on.
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Offline Ecthelion

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2011, 03:47:42 PM »
I don't see how any Rolemaster Lite can ever fill the role that Not-RM once did,
Why not? Of course the Middle Earth setting would miss. But that does not mean that a RM Lite would not work in bringing new players to the system.
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but if you're going to cut Rolemaster down, it needs to stay highly detailed in at least one area. I think that area should be combat (basically, Rolemaster Lite would be Arms Law+).
I agree that combat is an area where RM shines and where a RM Lite should show this. But I don't think that this must mean that RM Lite would be Arms Law+.
Quote
The old model won't work:
...
2. You need something to sell people on your Lite version. Crits have always been a key advertising point for Rolemaster, so why not focus there? It can't come close to replacing the best license ever for a fantasy game, but it might bring some people in. "We've watered down a game whose whole reputation is based on its rich options and detail" sure isn't going to be much of a come on.
I agree that criticals are cool and a strength. I am not sure, though, whether this means that a RM Lite should include the complete RM critical tables. The reduced tables from ME RP or, quite similar, HARPer's Bazaar #11 might also work. At least I remember that, way back in the 80s, we found even the reduced critical tables of the ME RP rulebook cool. Of course the complete weapon tables and the more detailed critical tables from Arms Law were even cooler ;), but I think the condensed tables would be sufficient - and somewhere you have to condense the rules to have it all fit into one book. Of course, including "only" the full critical tables, and not all weapon tables, would add "only" about a dozen pages or so...

YMMV

Offline ironmaul

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2011, 04:18:13 PM »
It is my intension to highlight RM combat mechanics and critcal tables. That is what sold me on RM and those that I've shown in the past. IMO there is no need to include all weapons, just a few old favourites. I'd include the Slash, Krush, Puncture and MA Strkes tables. And I'd only have the AT table from Cloth-Skin Base to Ridgid Leather Base.

Offline pastaav

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2011, 02:29:32 AM »
I have said it in a previous thread and I say it again here. I think that the merit of the level of detail for character creation in RM is not realized until you have progressed through a lot of levels. If we look at a first level character in RM then we are talking about a total newbie that if built correctly will have some areas when they have reasonable success chances. If the character is built badly then it will not have focus areas and suck at just about everything. Add in the total lack of good examples how RM rules are meant to play (a single paragraph about the importance of playing...without any examples about) and you have the very reason the game is labeled chartmaster and similar.

A stripped down version of the list of skills, professions and such can reduce the time needed to make choices during character creation, but it can't help with the problem that you are showing complexity without the detail that motivate the complexity. That it takes loads of time to make a character is yesterdays problem, RM lost the first round of the fight because length of character creation. Still the world changes and I very much doubt the time needed to make feats selection in that other game is smaller to what it takes to make choices in RM. RM lost the last round because few knew the RM continuing existence and story teller games has greatly raised the standard for how to explain rules and set up cool scenarios.

I think the RM lite should skip character creation as much as possible. Some approach inspired by Run Out the Guns, but for fantasy would be great.  Suppose the players are presented with premade characters at different levels. A string of adventure is given that is chosen to touch all the areas of play when RM is great. Each of the major scenes is presented with GM-guides section that explains how likely obstacles can be handled with the rules. A possible starting scenario would be characters traveling through to enemy land hunted by militia. The goal is learn a secret from a spell user. In the next scenario they pick next version of the characters (say +4 levels or something similar) and progress with a classic dungeon crawl to get the magical object to defeat the enemy. Finally they take the next version of characters and proceed with the major battle with the villain that is aided by some powerful monster like a dragon or a demon. Each character could optionally have some development that is tied to the plot (for instance one of the players have a sister kept captive by the villain, but it is up to the GM to chose whom).

The difficulty of getting such a railroad scenario right is not trivial, but I do think that likelihood is much greater that newbies after it will say "this is awesome, let's buy the game and make our own campaign" than if they are presented with lobotomized version of the game and have to suffer playing the incompetence of first level characters without ever seeing the level of detail that exist in the full blown system..     
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Offline ironmaul

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2011, 03:43:55 AM »
Well, I've been able to get my hands on the boxed set of RotG, so I'll be going through that to gleem ideas off of. I agree that pre-gen characters in RM lite is a must but haveing it so one could make their own characters/NPC's is just as important...more so for the GM. Haveing a good pre-made adventure is also important, especaily one that incorporates a sense of involvment for each player/character highlighting primary skills etc. Keep the ideas coming folks.

Offline Grinnen Baeritt

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2011, 04:30:39 AM »
For me the variety and depth of character generation is what sold me RM (not the charts) and also those that I've introduced to the system.. I feel that a "Lite" version should emphasise those points... not dismiss them.

If you want to make it "lite" then also ensure also that the book can be used and not just discarded, which is to say that anything in it should be used, as it is, without major modification in future projects.

Include one race, Human. Include all the "base" skill options available to make it viable for fantasy, historical or sci-fi character creation. Where there are cultural differences, then these should be dealt with at 1st level by the choice of the most appropriate adolecent skill table combined with a basic "human" template.

Introduce the concept of two free Training packages to be taken at 1st level. (Just like Run out the Guns). Obviously, these would need to be balanced, and provide certain generic items and some talents as part of the package, which need to be factored into the "balance". Purchase of TP past 1st level should be at the whim of the GM, based upon the activities of the characters, this time the actual cost being based upon the Profession chosen... and a quick system such as 10% DP discount be used. No items or Talents should be gained from their purchase after 1st level. 

Professions, here I would say only THREE Generic Professions, Fighter, Thief and Academic. These three can be used unmodified in additional products and are imediately useable in Historical and Modern/Future campaigns, the addition (and complication) of the differing types of magic/Psionics can be left for specific sourcebooks. But then give examples of how the base class might be changed to produce the various other Professions available.

Stats, I'd keep a 660 base point buy, then simply improve each stat by +2 each level. Bonuses using RMSS advancement.

Skills, use Skill Categories as basic advancement at 1st level, with the option of purchasing specific skill ranks in them left to later levels. Don't bother applying any sort of non-proficency penalty unless the character has nothing in that category, in that case apply a blanket -30. When performing ANY kind of skill apply the most appropriate category to the task, don't bother with specifics. Apply stat, Profession and Talent bonuses to the Category as a block at 1st level.

Talents, allow these to be purchased at later levels. Increase the cost of the Talent purchased by the use of a simple table based upon the total cost of the talents that the character already has. Thus, starting players need not bother selecting talents until they have "settled in" to the character and it also balances those Races that come with Talents built in... again an example could be given, but not detailed. The talents should be more generic, so that the number is reduced to a managable size.

Rules and Charts. A (revised and reduced) MM Table, SM Table and Basic Activity Tables Only, with a table of modifications for both. Combat Tables should be 1 for each Category, with examples of modification of those tables for specific weapons. The detailed weapons, should be left to other supplements.
Critical tables should be trimmed and made more generic, but work in the same way.

Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2011, 10:12:59 AM »
I think it would be more useful to clean up the rules, have plenty of clear, correct, and illustrative examples (too often when examples have been used, they have had errors or been used to insert humor that only encouraged common misunderstandings of Rolemaster). What the novice needs from Rolemaster is not so much less, as more. More clarity, more guidance, more examples. What should be cut are the non-Rolemaster rule sections in Arms Law and Spell Law, which only serve to confuse. Other than that, for the purpose of easy introduction to Rolemaster, what you cut is going to be less important than what you add.
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Offline smug

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2011, 10:18:09 AM »
I've been re-reading RMX (as I have the .pdf) and, to be honest, I think that it's a better intro to RM than Not-RM was -- to RM2/C, I mean -- and that the RMX Additions, from what I've seen of them, allowed a smooth path to full RMC (and your characters would be easily adaptable).

I don't think that HARP's a bad taster, either, although one might feel that in moving to RM you'd end up giving up some of what you liked about HARP; it's more of a cousin product.

If the context is a need for a Lite introduction to the next iteration of RM, if there is to be one, then I'd be inclined to follow the RMX model.