Topic: Shields and Full Parry

[Marc R]

When you go full parry with a weapon, you get it's shield bonus on top of the DB.

If you develop a shield as a weapon, then go full parry with it, do you add it's shield bonus on top of the DB?

This does seem to be correct. . . .but it's a LOT of DB.

[markc]

 Are you using the shield as your only weapon? Or is it part of 2WC?


MDC

[Marc R]

Either way. If you think it makes a difference, lay it out both ways.

[rdanhenry]

Yes, you get a lot of DB, but no more than if you did full parry with a regular weapon-and-shield combo. That's the whole idea of full parry, too get a lot of DB.

[Marc R]

True, just settling this into my head straight.

If you learn shield that offers +25 "passive DB" as a weapon, and you have +50 in it, and it's in your off hand (-20). You are +50 with the sword in the primary hand, and +50 in TWC.

(all numbers below OB/DB) all assume 1:1 fight.

If you TWC sword and shield 25/25. You take the off hand penalty to the shield attack, and per TWC the parry DB bonuses no longer stack. 25 (sword) 5 (shield)/25, net 55, with two attack rolls.

If you attack with the sword in the primary hand 25/25 and use the shield passively, it's worth +25 DB vis one foe. 25/50 net 75, with one attack roll.

If you full parry with the Shield and ignore the sword you get +25 from the shield bonus. 0/75, net 75 and one roll.

If you Full parry with the sword and passive the shield you get +5 shield bonus to the sword and +25 DB from the shield. 0/80, net 80 and one roll.

If you full parry with both, you get +5 for the sword and +25 for the shield, the parry DB overlaps per TWC rules so the 50 itself doesn't double. 0/80, net 80 and two rolls.

I think that's right, or did I screw any of that up?

[markc]

 IMHO no you did not.


Also it was ruled by Rasyr even if you do a full parry or full defense; you get a 0 OB attack.


MDC

[Marc R]

I think I had the right number of rolls up there.

Combo. . .TWC two +25 vs melee shields, each at +50 skill.

Two attacks at +25 with +25 DB.

Full parry +100 DB, two +0 attacks.

Turtle Turtle!

[markc]

 I think Rasyr ruled that Full Parry gave you an attack at 0 even when you got the +5 bonus. But that was then and this is now.


MDC

[Marc R]

I think I listed all the proper number of attacks above based on that rule?

I think that ruling lies in the fact that even if making no effort to deliberately attack there's still blows flying around. . .and you still have a chance to fumble. Both of which make perfect sense.

[Old Man]

I think I had the right number of rolls up there.

Combo. . .TWC two +25 vs melee shields, each at +50 skill.

Two attacks at +25 with +25 DB.

Full parry +100 DB, two +0 attacks.

Turtle Turtle!

We called it, pardons in advance, Polish Florentine. The only practitioner was a Sorceress using spiked target shields...

But not much different than using 2 Sais or 2 Main Gauches...

I could see only allow 1 "weapon DB" (in this case 25 or 25, normally 25 or 5) when on full parry. Then the DB would be 25 + 50 parry skill.

(Actually wouldn't the +25 for the shield supersede the parry value for the main weapon?)

Regards,
Old Man

[Marc R]

The shield value appears to be added on top. . .so it's 50DB from parrying with each shield, vs one target no overlap per the TWC rule for a total of 50. . .then +25 for shield A and +25 for shield B's shield bonuses. . .

Unless you consider the "shield bonus" part of the parry DB, thus not allowed to overlap, in which case it would be 50DB (skill)  + 25 (shield bonus) = 75 for each shield, no overlap for a total of 75 DB.

[markc]

 If you attack with the shield you do not get the +25 DB, Even if full parry. You either get the defense bonus for the shield or you get to attack with it.


 I will go back tomorrow and check the numbers.


MDC 

[Marc R]

If you go full parry with any weapon, you add it's "Shield bonus" to your DB. . .which for most weapons is +5.

So if you have Broadsword +50 and declare full parry, you get 50 +5 = 55 DB out of it.

[rdanhenry]

With a normal weapon you get the bonus for either no attack or full parry. This note is not included with shields (at least in the RMSR, which is the version I have to hand), but offensive use of a shield is only an optional rule (and I'm not sure it was even that when the original chart was developed). I would think that when using a shield as a weapon, the same rule that is applied to the other weapons should apply to the shield and the "shield bonus" be counted when using a full parry.

[Marc R]

P91, RMSS 23.2.2 calls it a "Shield Bonus" and refers you to table 3.6.

P92 RMSS under 23.2.6 has parrying with the whole OB getting the "Shield bonus" specified on table 3.6.

(Markc, the "You still have to roll with full parry is RAW, and right there on p92.)

P93 Table 3.6 lists shields and weapons. . .and I did consider the fact that if you train it as a weapon, a shield is considered "one handed concussion" so you might use the "one handed weapon" row. . .but the Main Gauche gives a +15 shield bonus.  . .and I'm pretty sure the Sai offers an enhanced "shield bonus" also. . .and I suspect a shield makes a better shield than either of those weapons.

But I could definitely see what you're getting at, in that the table is presuming shields are not used as weapons, or if they are you use the "1 handed weapon" row. . .as I had that same thought until I ran the numbers.

If you check the breakouts in reply #4 above it's not really actually abusive since you end up with less DB than if you used the shield passively in TWC. . .and I forgot about the off hand penalty in the very last example, so the shield+sword full parry would only generate 50+25+5-20=60 DB since you're not allowed to allot -20 OB to an attack in split to get the full 80 out of it. . .and even if you were ambidextrous or using the shield in prime hand, you'd just tie the primary-hand-sword, passive use of shield in the off hand full parry DB of 80.

the only "exploit" I could build out of it might be to have casters develop shield as their primary weapon, and when not casting go full DB behind the shield for Skill+shield DB and a perhaps lucky +0 OB attack. . .but most casters would be better off learning a weapon or unarmed, and mages can't hack carrying a shield due to their dead weight limits to casting. . .I find all the above interesting, but there's no real way to abuse it I can think of.

The turtle-turtle was just a joke. . .though amusing to see Old Man had someone do it.

[Ecthelion]

Personally, I would not allow two shields being used together, be it for TWC, adding 2 x 25 to your DB or using a normal shield plus a Shield spell (the latter being forbidden by the spell anyway). That way you won't run into these problems. Yes, this using two shields is not (yet) explicitly forbidden in the rules, but I think it should not be allowed.

[Skaran]

Do you double the fumble ranges of each weapon when using 2WC?

[Ecthelion]

No

[Old Man]

Personally, I would not allow two shields being used together, be it for TWC, adding 2 x 25 to your DB or using a normal shield plus a Shield spell (the latter being forbidden by the spell anyway). That way you won't run into these problems. Yes, this using two shields is not (yet) explicitly forbidden in the rules, but I think it should not be allowed.

I'd only allow the largest DB bonus when parrying. So you'd only get the 25 or 30 (if a Wall Shield) when using 1,2 or 3 shields... I'd then apply that bonus vs all foes defended against (in whatever arc the GM might use, if using hexes, facings etc.). I would find splitting the parry DB based on which weapon is used vs which opponent to be too complex.

Regards,
Old Man

[MidKnight]

I think I listed all the proper number of attacks above based on that rule?

I think that ruling lies in the fact that even if making no effort to deliberately attack there's still blows flying around. . .and you still have a chance to fumble. Both of which make perfect sense.

Yes, the 'Fumble Check' was the source of the zero OB attack when full parrying.