Official ICE Forums
Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => Topic started by: Pyske on June 22, 2009, 10:55:05 AM
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Don't get me wrong, I'm sure mages aren't dying left and right in RM games. I have the feeling I'm overlooking something obvious.
An average mage type is obviously going to have a significantly lower DB available, compared to a fighter. They can't wear armor or carry a shield. So, how does a mage avoid getting creamed by the first opponent to get close?
The obvious answer would seem to be "spells", but all the defensive spells I'm seeing are single turn, instant spells (i.e. Bladeturn). Since mages are limited to one spell a turn, that would seem to mean that the mage doesn't get to cast anything offensive if he's being attacked.
Have I overlooked some sort of option that allows mages to do a better job of defending themselves, or is this an intentional balance point of the system?
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Several things come to mind almost immediately:
1) The "Full Parry" combat action should be your mage's best friend. He shouldn't be trying to kill bad guys, he should be trying to hold out until reinforcements arrive.
2) The old adage "Run away, and you live to fight another day." Was never more true than when you are dealing with a character with 15 hit points. There is a difference between bravery and stupidity.
3) Ethics aside, poison is your friend.
4) Stealth and sneaky behavior will trump youthful enthusiasm every time.
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And don't forget brains. I think that young mages do need protection ny their combat-oriented brethrens in unsuspected fights. On the other hand, plannification is their best friend in forecast combat (where to hide, how tho act...). And maybe it could be a good thing for them to purchase some ranks in missile weapons in order to give the group a hand in combat while minimizing the risk to be hit.
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Since mages are limited to one spell a turn, that would seem to mean that the mage doesn't get to cast anything offensive if he's being attacked.
For that we have a house rule, you can cast only 1 attack spell per round, but 2 spells are allowed if 1 is not attack type.
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Let's not forget the Beatles method:
"With a little help from my friends."
Plus, avoidance is the absolutely best way to survive. If they aren't there to get whacked, then they don't get whacked. (Just ask any of the Sopranos. :o) But, of course, they cannot always "not be there" so it is in their best interest - and that of the whole group - that they find/learn/acquire defensive magics as best as they can. Things to increase their DB and AT with minimal affect to their spellcasting are very important.
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An average mage type is obviously going to have a significantly lower DB available, compared to a fighter. They can't wear armor or carry a shield. So, how does a mage avoid getting creamed by the first opponent to get close?
First thing my mages always tried is not having the opponent get into melee range. Spells like e.g. Leaping are your friend when trying this. And the Shield spell can overcome the restriction concerning shields.
The obvious answer would seem to be "spells", but all the defensive spells I'm seeing are single turn, instant spells (i.e. Bladeturn). Since mages are limited to one spell a turn, that would seem to mean that the mage doesn't get to cast anything offensive if he's being attacked.
Having a little bit of OB with one melee weapon is a good idea if there is a high probability that the mage will face a melee encounter sooner or later. Of course, trying to develop ranks with a weapon is quite expensive for a mage, but I prefer it to losing my characters :P. A little OB offers the chance to do a full parry for some rounds and survice until the fighters can help. Spells like Blur or Shield are also useful when defending like this and last longer than one round, like Bladeturn does.
For quick mages who can cast Firebolt or a similar deadly bolt there is also another option: Fire the bolt when the opponent gets into the 10' Point Blank range, where the bolt gets +35 to the attack, and hope that the opponent gets hurt so badly that he can't attack. As long as he is kept stunned the mage can keep firing his bolts. This is of course quite risky ... but if the mage can't flee or defend himself using a weapon this might be an option.
Finally: Welcome to the forums!
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Sometimes they die on the left and sometimes they die on the right too. ;)
About weapons and mages: 9 DP for the 1st weapon slot and 20(!) for the rest...whew.
But, IIRC, Stikes are 9 too. If someone gets that close, and you absolutely have to, punch them! Or better yet, develop sweeps! Always putting an 85 in Qu helps a little.
Another route to go is Daily # ! Spell Stores, etc.
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Also, if you like Training Packages....
City Guard is better than nothing.
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I can't remember who said it, but it's the best advice for playing spellcasters I have ever gotten:
1) Have your mage buy the best suit of armor he can afford.
2) Stick it on the largest, meanest humanoid you can find.
3) Keep him between you and everyone else on the battlefield.
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Mages can wear armor: AT2 robes! These can be enchanted to give a DB. Robes do provide protection against animals. A magician can use a shield, most do not. I like to alternate body dev and weapon ranks as an illusionist.
RMFRP is much better than RM2 for low level mages. Instead of learning lists, and only being able to cast 2 first level spells an RMFRP caster learns ranks in multiple lists. Usually a magician will have 20 spells on ten lists they can use at second level. This is better than the six spells on three lists in RM2. This really helps an illusionist! If you sit back and cast bolt spells, then you are not doing what a magician/illusionist needs to do. Invisibility, movement spells, and detections all help avoid battle.
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Mages can wear armor: AT2 robes! These can be enchanted to give a DB. Robes do provide protection against animals.
And change the AT to 3 or 4.
A magician can use a shield, most do not.
Yes, usually a small wood shield, you can enchant it (+10DB temporaly) with the new spell lists in RMFRP.
I like to alternate body dev and weapon ranks as an illusionist.
Body dev. , what a pain for essence spell users! (15 DP) :'(
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Mages can wear armor: AT2 robes! These can be enchanted to give a DB. Robes do provide protection against animals.
And change the AT to 3 or 4.
How can they change it? Is there any spell in the official RMC or RMSS/RMFRP rules that does allow this (except perhaps an Alchemist's enchantments, which is a different matter)?
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An average mage type is obviously going to have a significantly lower DB available, compared to a fighter. They can't wear armor or carry a shield. So, how does a mage avoid getting creamed by the first opponent to get close?
- Using spells to move around and keep themselves out of melee (leaping, leaving, etc)
- Using spells to incapacitate their opponents (sleep, stun, etc)
- Invisibility and or Illusions
- Summoned walls and creatures
- Using spells to raise their defenses (DB enhancements...). I've put this one for last since it's not a very efficent way to defend oneself, it's more of a desperate defense until someone arrives and saves you...
Most of the time they simply do not let any enemy get close to them (which is probably the best thing to do in a fight...).
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Finally: Welcome to the forums!
Thanks. And thanks to everyone for the feedback.
I'll probably see if I can find Shield and Blur tonight, so I know what lists they're on.
If the game currently under consideration by our group makes, it will be an RM2 game, which sounds like it may make life a little more difficult. :)
Regardless, the notes about wall and movement spells, and other avoidance techniques, are definitely something I'll do my best to make use of.
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1) The "Full Parry" combat action should be your mage's best friend. He shouldn't be trying to kill bad guys, he should be trying to hold out until reinforcements arrive.
I recall a pure-Essence PC who tried that.
Me (GM): "You can perform a full parry with your dagger and get an additional +5."
Player: "How does that work?"
Me: "How much do you have in OB with your dagger?"
Player: "-20."
Me: "..."
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I can't speak to RM2. :-[
Shield Mastery is a pretty good List to have for protection. ;)
When you also consider Rune Mastery, Spirit Mastery... Now that I think of it, sure is interesting that the Closed Lists are so useful..?
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That is kinda the whole point with them being closed :P
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One other thing (or two things, actually) that help a mage survive in my campaigns:
1. Fly
2. Invisibility
It's amazing how few things can hit you when you're invisible and flying 50 feet in the air.
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Let's not forget the Beatles method:
"With a little help from my friends."
I don't know about your games but low level casters are the minority, melee types in the majority. Lesson: stick with a guy who can take hits and hold off creatures while you prep your spells OR hit from the rear. Or run away.
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Hi,
I can only agree with the "put something in between you and the enemy" comments. A Mage is about dealing damage or hindering opponents from far away. If someone comes close, he has a problem. At all levels.
BR Juergen
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By making sure the fighter isn't in the fireball's area effect.
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I agree with the put someone between you and the combat logic, magic items help, if they exist, but at low levels it's often best to keep out of range of a fight. . .the various movement lists tend to be one of my first picks for a mage. . . ."run away" is a good ploy. . . .as is sticking to roleplay. . . I can think of many low level mages who flat out refused to go out into the wilds courting danger. . . .you're a high status professional, like a newly graduated doctor, why are you out in the woods hunting orcs if you don't have 3-4 beefy types around to protect you?
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One thing that I feel I should mention.
Roleplaying is generally as part of a group. People should be able to play whatever class they like and the GM should try to accomodate them. However, you can't really play a game when one player is "running away" or claiming the "high status professional" line.
If I was playing in a game and the mage (1/3 of the party in my case) decided to flee something that the rest of us could not (a lot of things are faster than PC's), then I would be more than slightly annoyed since they have just reduced the chances of the other characters surviving.
Roleplaying is a group game, everyone wants to contribute and have fun, being left in the lurch time and time again is frustrating. People should design character responsibly, not from a "it's all about me" point of view.
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professional, like a newly graduated doctor, why are you out in the woods hunting orcs if you don't have 3-4 beefy types around to protect you?
Like in residency? Where they work ungodly hours? Our newly appointed low level mage has to put his time in too, to prove himself and hone his skills. Ergo, adventuring with 3-4 beefy types.
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I've never had great success in getting mage types to live through early levels in RM. However, full parry is great, and don't forget the Hail Mary +0 attack! Protect yourself and swing wildly at the attacker (hoping for an openended roll).
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I would argue a new doctor is not level one, but probably level 3 (minimum) to level 8 (maximum). They are also closer to 30 years old than not.
No mage would hit the street at level one unless he had to. Of course, I am totally over the level system and would like it to go away in the next version of RM, just to state my bias. However, I think we often get stuck on having to start at level one because "that's what you do." I disagree and I do not think it is realistic.
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depends on where you start off. . . .if it's in the field killing monsters, level 1 seems unlikely for a mage, if you start off in your third term at Hogwarts, then perhaps it makes more sense.
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depends on where you start off. . . .if it's in the field killing monsters, level 1 seems unlikely for a mage, if you start off in your third term at Hogwarts, then perhaps it makes more sense.
Certainly, everything is relative.
For us, starting a level one game is the exception. Unless the sorty calls for it, we do not. We grew out of having to. Starting with a level 6 PC is not cheating or evil. Doing so makes much more sense when I'm playing an ex marine turned cop who has been on the force for almost two years.
What I do not like about the typical 1st level PC is how they seem to live in a vacuum and limit the story that can be wrapped around them. My freinds and I play for fun, and after 25+ years of gaming, level one has lost most of its allure.
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depends on where you start off. . . .if it's in the field killing monsters, level 1 seems unlikely for a mage, if you start off in your third term at Hogwarts, then perhaps it makes more sense.
I'm sure that in a game where "you start off in your third term at Hogwarts", you'd be killing monsters in the field anyway, so it's pretty much the same! ;D
It's weird to have at the same time a thread where someone complains about mages being too powerful, and a thread where someone wonders how mages can survive being so vulnerable. ???
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It's weird to have at the same time a thread where someone complains about mages being too powerful, and a thread where someone wonders how mages can survive being so vulnerable. ???
And that alone should serve as evidence that this is all subjective and depends on a multitude of variables that cannot be readily defined.
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It's weird to have at the same time a thread where someone complains about mages being too powerful, and a thread where someone wonders how mages can survive being so vulnerable. ???
Just bear in mind, I didn't doubt that they can survive; I was just failing to see how to make it happen. I started with the assumption that the failure was mine, not the system's.
I assume when we talk about running away, y'all mean "get out of melee range / behind cover", as opposed to "flee the scene entirely".
Similarly, I'm entertained by the (apparently ongoing) argument about 1st level characters, since that wasn't really part of the original premise. :)
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I think that duality is the important thing here! :)
Mages are too powerful....eventually.
How do Mages survive.....low levels; like 1st!!
Since two topics are going on about this issue, I think that it's an important one! ;D
I don't have alot, ok many, none really, answers... but it does seem revenant.
Sorry, relevant to the game. :)
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I must be confused. Is this mage who can't survive first level going out solo? I don't think survival of a GROUP has ever been a problem. any solo character in a fantasy RPG is going to die horribly. If this mage is in a group, simply because he is weak makes it easier to survive as any semi-sentient creature is going to take out the bigger threats first and our little robed weakling isn't the big threat.
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I must be confused. Is this mage who can't survive first level going out solo? I don't think survival of a GROUP has ever been a problem. any solo character in a fantasy RPG is going to die horribly. If this mage is in a group, simply because he is weak makes it easier to survive as any semi-sentient creature is going to take out the bigger threats first and our little robed weakling isn't the big threat.
Exactly!
And a very smart creature would take out the mage first!
;D
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Really? He has a choice of a guy who may or may not be able to cast a devestating spell or a guy wearing a lot of metal and some nasty weapons. Until that robed guy running around screaming like a little girl actually DOES something, why worry about him? And once that hard, crunchy protective coating (the assorted melee types) go down, we all know how soft and juicy the remaining casters are........
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Really? He has a choice of a guy who may or may not be able to cast a devestating spell or a guy wearing a lot of metal and some nasty weapons. Until that robed guy running around screaming like a little girl actually DOES something, why worry about him? And once that hard, crunchy protective coating (the assorted melee types) go down, we all know how soft and juicy the remaining casters are........
Yep!
Really.
IMHO of course.
Leaving the Mage unmolested will make the Fighter-types harder to beat.
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Really? He has a choice of a guy who may or may not be able to cast a devestating spell or a guy wearing a lot of metal and some nasty weapons. Until that robed guy running around screaming like a little girl actually DOES something, why worry about him? And once that hard, crunchy protective coating (the assorted melee types) go down, we all know how soft and juicy the remaining casters are........
The disagreement IMO shows that there does not to be a common knowledge whom to attack first. Therefore in our group we always let the dice decide who gets attacked. Everything else is biased by the GM knowledge - which does not have to be the monster's knowledge.
YMMV
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The disagreement IMO shows that there does not to be a common knowledge whom to attack first.
The healer, or the leader.
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BTW making a PSI-Doctor in SM:P with the various TP's my player took 6 levels to become a doctor.
MDC
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Exactly!
And a very smart creature would take out the mage first!
;D
Because everyone knows that magic users are too powerful!
Just joking, I couldn't resist! ;D
I assume when we talk about running away, y'all mean "get out of melee range / behind cover", as opposed to "flee the scene entirely".
Yes!
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You hit the guy in the starry robes before the armored fighter because whether he's powerful or not, he's still a softer target and taking him out makes it safer to take on the fighter. Even 1st level spell-casters have access to useful support spells. You especially hit the spell-casters first if you attack with surprise. You may only have one chance to take them down before they get up defensive spells or hit you with massive firepower. Risk management says you take out the glass cannon first, because it is glass as much as because it is a cannon. You probably can't take out the tank immediately and it is better to be fighting fewer foes.
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Funny thing is, if the robed guy is a seer, an unarmored merchant or similarly unperilous character, the bad guys suddenly choose to attack the armored fighters again. Mostly, from my experience, it is the meta-knowlegde of the GM that guides the bad guys towards the targets to attack - and that should not be the case! So better let the dice select the target to attack.
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Run as fast as your little legs can carry you.
Jokes aside it's always best to get out of harms way.
Not fighting is always better than fighting.
Keep the muscles between you and the pointy things.
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Most important rule to survive as a low level mage:
Do not fight kitty cats! If a house cat comes at you, just run!
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(damned tiny criticals!)
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I can remember the first time I saw a housecat pic on the chart and thought, huh?
It's underestimating animals that really gives them an advantage.
Friends wife was scratched pretty bad by their cat, red streaks running up her arm, hospital time, the whole nine yards.. really awful!
A buddy playing a Monk, told me about 2 bluejays he had as companions. I thought "liability" until the other players told me about about how effective the "tiny's" were and how hard the jays were to hit!
Familiars help Mages!