Official ICE Forums
ICE Partners => Echoes of Heaven => Topic started by: Defendi on May 13, 2007, 04:48:54 AM
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All right. As I approach a print release, I've been spending a lot of time thinking about pricing. Since I plan on selling through Amazon and POD costs more than a large run printer, my profit per book on Amazon will be smaller than most of you might think. However, I can't practially price less on Lulu.com than I do on Amazon, so Amazon is my price focus for figuring out how much I need to charge.
So. The first book will be available on Amazon for d20 only, and only in softcover. 255 pages or so. The interiors will be black and white. So, barring Amazon discounts, which I can't control, how much is that book worth to you (if it were in your game system).
Problem is, I rarely buy roleplaying books anymore. I get the ones I use most for free. :) So my pricepoint sense is shot.
I noticed that Shadowworld MA was going for 34.95 or so, and it's about the same length. Is that about what you'd expect? Too high? Looking for 29.95 instead? Less? More?
Honest opinions needed from people who still buy books and have a customer's sense. :)
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I'd pay $30-$35 for the EoH CS book. A little less maybe for the follow-up source books since they are smaller. $8-$12 is normal for adventures I think.
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I don't intend to do the adventures seperate, so the 35 would be for The Echoes of Heaven Campaign Setting/The Throne of God.
I haven't run numbers on product 2 and on. I'll check comperable products when the time is right. If all else fails I'll post another one of these quesitonaires. My goal was to make the same amount for the later products as the first, but I think that puts the price too high (like 28 or 29 dollars). Agian, haven't run the numbers, so even that's a guess.
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I don't have a final on the hardbound version, either. They cost me $12 more, but they won't be on Amazon, so I can eat some of that. :)
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I am very selective on what I buy and I am a price hunter as opposed to the old see it and buy it days. But for retail I think somewhere in the $15-$25 doller range after discout from amazon would be doable. IMO right now you want to make money but also have a cheeper price point untill you can pump up your volume. Also the cheep price point will draw a lot more people in with the way gas and other prices will be going [IMO]. For the modules seperatly I would say around $6.95 to $9.95 but again try and be cheeper and better than other publishers. IMO that is how you get ahead and make people want to buy you out for your market share. But you also have to eat and feed others so that also has to work into the equation.
Good Luck
MDC
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Cool. More datapoints, people. :)
No seperate adventures for now.
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I think the going price for comparable books is definately in the $35 range. I think that is a good place to start thinking about your price point for your product, call it $29.95 if you really want to beef up volume, 39.95 to get a few extra bucks (but then I think your PDFs are worth a bit more than you are charging so maybe I'm a bit off that way)
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Thanks! I definately see your point on the PDFs. The reason mine are so low is that I feel 1) All pdfs are overpriced. 2) I have almost no cost in making them, and I'd feel dishonest charging more.
I actually wanted to set them at $3, but that is below the minimum checkout on RPGNow. Plus, everyone else's are so inflated, in my opponion, that if I set them too low, it looks like I'm dumping a crap product. So I comprimised. :)
I just explained that so that you'd know that your price sense isn't off. Given the prices of other PDFs, mine are way below norm. The campaign setting would normalling go for 17-20 dollars on RPGNow, I think.
Then again, I'm selling better than 60% of all the other products, so I think it's working. :).
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Hi,
I don't know about other products, but from my gut feeling I would not pay more than 29.95 (yes, the 5 cents are important....).
And I think your price is too low. Perhaps its ok for #1 to get new people hooked to your work, but otherwise you are selling yourself below your value.
BR
Juergen
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Okay, so if you feel strongly enough about it, I suggest you all hold an intervention. :) Start a thread and convince me to raise my PDF prices. I'd be interested to see if there's any who disagree.
One final note, though. I don't think I'll have any way of discounting print products for preexisting PDF customers. So realize that if you buy both when they release, you'll be paying the print price plus the PDF price.
Okay, I'll be interested in seeing what happens. :)
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What you could do is giving the pdf for free to pront customers. They just have to send you a copy of the bill and you send them a download link...
BR
Juergen
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Yes, and although there may be some hiccups in that, I'm willing to do it. The problem is that each book will come out in print months, maybe a year after it comes out in PDF. It's the ones that buy the PDF first that I'm talking about.
Amazon has a method of upgrading to print +pdf for like 2-3 dollars. RPGNow has a button for linking the two. It's the books on Lulu that might have a problem with this, but I'd send a free pdf to someone who proved they'd bought the print version. :)
But that's not the worry. It's the people upgrading from PDF to Print that I'm talking about. :)
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Hi,
Can you send people a voucher for the print version if they send you a copy of the bill for the pdf? It would mean you have to do this manually, so I guess practicability also depends on the number of purchases you expect...
BR
Juergen
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Not through Lulu or Amazon sales. It MIGHT be possible through RPGNow sales. I've never looked. I do doubt it, since they subcontract to Lulu.
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I just checked on RPGNow. I can't do it there either.
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I have almost no cost in making them, and I'd feel dishonest charging more.
convince me to raise my PDF prices
I hope your time is worth something. ;D
That's kind of funny. Even though I get the discount coupon everytime to help you bump up sales I was thinking about paying full price next time just because I would buy it anyway and I feel like I am ripping you off.
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Ah, I love you guys. :)
If you REALLY feel like you need to do that, buy them all twice and give one set to a friend. It will help my stats. :)
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For a comparison, the RMC Spell Law is 264 page or so, and ICE is selling it for $35, and that is currently considered to be on the low end of the industry price bracket for that size of a book.
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I also think it is important to realize that a ot of the products I have seen latle are bad. ie a lot of inflated pages and not a lot of good campain material. So IMO the pg count vs $ is not a good one, a better one is usefulness vs bloat. Now I do now own the RMC-SL but I use most of if not all of RMSS-SL so IMO this is a value book. OTOH I varry rarly use the RMSS and a 10 foot pole so that is not as valuable to me.
On the PDF pricing, I agree that they are very overpriced for what you get in most cases. And I do not see that changing anytime soon.
BTW, I did pay full price for my iniatial product eventhough I had a coupon as I like to suport products thik this. But lately since I have moved and my bis has declined do to the move I have used the coupon but have pimped the product to many more people. So I guess it works out.
MDC
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I'd go $29.95, but if the financials don't work for you at that point - go to $32.95 - try to avoid going above there. When people feel they paid a lot for a product it almost doesn't matter how good the product is, they'll have a hard time believing they got their money's worth.
Thom
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I would also like to add that my last group rarely bought anything as they spent their $ on family and RPG computer games. The group since I have moved mosly work at bookstores so they get special pricing on most if not all products, so I am the only one paying full price/retail/discount retail for my rpg's.
Another thing I might look at is compyright protection on your PDF's in a year or two. As at that point you should have the volume and fan base to prevent all the free gifting of your PDF's.
MDC
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How will the maps be handled?
Some type of insert/foldout or will they just be pages in the book?
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Black and white interior pages. I really don't have another option. As we talked about in another thread, I might produce a second little side product which is nothing but 16 pages or so of color interior maps, like a little D&D module.
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I think that would be nice to have and it would be interesting to see the sales difference. I also remember D&D S-1 with the fold out pictures, that was sweet especially with all the traps.
MDC
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Yeah, inserts and fold outs are impossible. I wish they weren't.
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I think that $29.95 would be a good start. The last book I bought was Space 1889 which is about the same size. It cost me ? 23.00 which is more or less the same price and I considered it to be quite cheap.
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35$ seems okay to me, plus 12$ for the hardbound, too. Reason: I have the possibility to get the PDF first so I can gauge whether the book is worth it. I have to admit that I'm a bit of a collector, though, so I may be willing to pay a bit more than usual... ;)
I would strongly suggest separating adventures from settings, though (which would reduce the price a bit?). (Especially) softcover books in excess of 200 pages have a tendency to dissolve. Also, I would never expect an adventure in a hardbound!?
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It would reduce the price very little. Maybe $1 on my end and 2-3 on yours (I'd have to look back over the pricing logic.) Plus, I'd have to commision new cover art and pay twice for distribution setup fees. Anyone else feel strongly aobut this?
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I don't feel strongly about it, but Joe does bring up a good point about large softcover books. But, I think this is only a problem on Product 1 since Products 2 and 3 are <200 pages together.
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It would reduce the price very little. Maybe $1 on my end and 2-3 on yours (I'd have to look back over the pricing logic.) Plus, I'd have to commision new cover art and pay twice for distribution setup fees. Anyone else feel strongly aobut this?
You could just use a location map or other reuse art rather than whole new art. (Art ain't cheap) Adventures are more useful in the very portable simple saddle format.
Do you have to pay setup for each book on lulu? I though once you paid the basic account fees it got cheaper.
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To list on amazon costs, not the initial lulu, but it does double the amount of sales I have to make to go do amazon. It also doubles the print cost when I try to get into distribution.
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When you list on amazon, do you end up with returns?
Plus you need a block of ISBNs right and iirc those are not free to US citizens, something like 250 for 10. (Canadian Publishers get ISBNs for free)
The costs do add up. Sigh.
How is the setup process, I have read through the basic info and it looks ok... though calculating binding size for the cover and the trim looked a little more challenging than ye plain old PDF making.
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I'm not sure how Amazon does returns. I know they list with Ingram too, which I think means the book can be stripped for a refund. I need to ask them about that.
With Lulu, you don't have to go get your own ISBN, they supply one when they list you through all their distrbutors. THAT costs a good deal though (for a company my size it's a good deal, at least).
I've never actually done a setup, although it seem RELATIVELY painless. There's an extra step or two when you go to distribution, because you have get the ISBn, then generate a bar code, then place them on your cover and reupload (if you use wrap around at least, which I will). Jonathan Dale is pretty happy with them. I've ordered a couple of other people's books so I can get a general seonse of quality. They haven't arrived yet.
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Ah... the 100 published by lulu option... the draw back of that is that Lulu becomes the publisher of record and owns the book's ISBN. Since it is print on demand the publication rights might never revert to you... so if you want to do a big order printing (I know dreaming in Technicolour here) you are under restrictions.
The 50 dollar option seems the same except you have to buy the ISBN and are the publisher of record which means you are free to do print runs with other people when ever you want. The US does charge a fair bit for a block of 10 ISBNs though (250 or so I think).
All in all not a bad way to get a book done relatively cheaply (compared to the minimum runs of 400 at some other places). I think I will opt for the $50 option (when I have something ready to go) but then ISBNs are free to Canadian publishers (our government subsidizes the arts). That way (dreaming again) if I ever wanted to do a run of 400 and stock pile them (significantly more profit and hassle... but it gives you trade show stock) I don't have to pay Lulu prices for them. (good for POD, not as good on small to medium runs)
I am interested to hear how the experience goes. I'll be sure to add your book to my birthday wish list... but if past experience is any indication I'll have to buy it for myself while my wife gets me something I don't want. (don't tell her I said that). :)
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I just checked out their bulk prices and they don't seem that bad for a 1-4 hundred run... not as good as some but still not bad. So it may not be a problem to go with them as publisher of record.
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I think its 150, not 50. :)
Where do they have bulk rates. I've never seen that. Is there a link?
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http://www.lulu.com/help/index.php?fSymbol=ordering_faq#FAQLink1
There is a link to the book cost calculator that shows you what you pay for bulk orders.
In the payment FAQ there is a disincentive for Published by Lulu... they have withholdings on earnings for returns and other expenses. They only issue revenue periodically as well... I wonder if there is more information available for that.
For an RPG book is Amazon.com and general distribution a good thing for a small press item where you have returns and other silliness to deal with? Could you make an account, upload your material for your own printing only and just get bulk copies 50 to 100 at a time and sell it from your own site... or to an RPG distributor (dreaming again)... at the odd convention and through your FLGS.
Even if you left POD for customers without the distribution you save on fees and can direct your customers too it. Is there a business case for being on Amazon in the RPG market?
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Given that Amazon will discount conventional products quite severely (and stopping them doing this is an ongoing issue), being listed on Amazon is not necessarily a good thing.
Best wishes,
Nicholas
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I have no problem with Amazon discounting, but they probably won't discount me, so it's unlikely to matter on my end.
Thanks Allen. I've read that several times and never noticed that the calculator itself shows the discounts.
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I seem to remember that Bruce in one of the newsletters regarding the in-house printer suggested that the print shop would produce the ICE line and other unrelated print jobs as capacity allowed. This suggests to me that they might have excess capacity (once they catch up on the backlog) that you might be able to use while negotiating a better price/cut with ICE than with Amazon or Lulu. Though you might have to handle distribution yourself. Have you approached Bruce with this idea?
Of course, I could be in inaccurately remembering the newsletter or may have mis-read something. :-\
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We're discussing it.
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I downloaded the "what to buy" last night from your website and would buy a soft cover book for $30-$34. As I live in Canada Amazon is better (for me).
I'm bringing this topic back from the dead cause I would like to know if plans are going to happen with this as I would rather shoot myself then read a PDF :o
So is this a dead topic?
Thanks in advance...............
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Not dead. We've seen a test print of the first book, HARP version. The paperback looked great, the hardback had quality issues, but support seemed to think it was just a bad print job and look like they're sending me a new copy. I've ordered paperback and hardbound version of the OGL version and I'm hoping to do HERO and RM this week. Once I've seen good copies of all versions, they will go live.
They'll probably be shipped from Lulu, though. I don't know offhand if Lulu has a Canadian print center. What are shipping costs like from the US to Canada?
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Rpgs are incredible expensive here so if I only had to pay $35 for a book I would be happy. As it is now a rpg priced to $35 ends up costing close to$70 here. That being said, I think the 30-35$ range is an acceptable price. If you bundle the settingbook with the adventure (as the pdf) $35 isnt a bad price. Generally if its $40 and up I start to want hardcover and fullcolor illustrations.
There is also the idea of setting the first book cheaper than it should be to get more people trying it out, and then sell more sourcebooks. Wizards did this for the first DnD 3rd corebooks.
As for pdf products, I would stay with the current price as it may convince people to buy their copy instead of getting it elsewhere. Whereas is the price for a pdf closer to what a hardcopy would cost I think more would select the other solution. Wouldnt it also means more products sold if the price for the pdf were lower?
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*The core books for DnD 3rd ed. were cheap do to the amount of printed books they did, they have an established customer base which far out weights Echoes, so No the price could not be cheaper as it would reflex lower profit on Defendi.
*My opinion.
I'm fortunate enough to have contacts in the states so it will not be a problem if I have to order via a U.S store. I have never dealt with Lulu but will.
Defendi, any chance on a time frame? Before Christmas?
Also are you willing to take an extra $5 to sign a copy I purchase? ;D
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It should be before christmas. I hope to be waiting on proof copies by the end of next week. We could work out an autograph. I should be ordering some from ICE to have onhand for special orders and conventions and the like.
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Looking forward to getting it in print.
Are you going to do just The Echoes of Heaven/The Throne of God at first and the rest at a later time?
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Well, the only way to not do the rest at a later time would be to put it off indefinitely until all the others were finished. That would be six months to a year.
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I'm willing to wait but need my fix now ;)
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Heh. I think this one will have taken me some 3 or 4 hundred hours to get ready for print. Whew!
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I don?t know if this is still possible, but wouldn?t it be great to have the adventure seeds included in the corresponding books?
I think buying them separately is too expensive for most people and it would be a nice goody for the printed version. ;D
Just an idea... :-\
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It IS too late. I'm not sure what I'd do if it wasn't, though. The adventure seeds kinda mesh with Guild Adventurer stuff, and I can't add those. :) However, At this point, it would push everything back a month.