Official ICE Forums
Gamer's Corner => General Discussion => Topic started by: dutch206 on March 24, 2015, 07:33:22 PM
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The governor of Indiana has indicated that he is ready to sign a bill that would allow business owners to discriminate against LGBT customers.
The officials at GenCon responded by sending a message to the governor: If you sign this bill, we will have no choice but to move GenCon out of Indiana. (This would be a huge blow to the state tourism industry)
Regardless of where you stand on this issue, things are about to get interesting.
(Source: "Shaintar" author Sean Patrick Fannon)
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deleted. I will try to repost later.
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It's too bad the contract is through 2020. I have my doubts if they'd be willing to break the contract and the Gov probably doesn't give a hoot what happens in four years (he likely won't even be in office anymore).
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news story (http://www.indystar.com/story/news/politics/2015/03/24/gen-con-threatens-move-convention-gov-mike-pence-signs-religious-freedom-bill/70393474/)
This is how Indianapolis is covering the story.
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Very interesting and if the law does pass I would love to see how the economics works out in the long run. But if I were to guess I think that since we are entering a USA presidential election cycle that the law will pass and if more such laws are passed then it will head to the USA's Supreme Court.
As a side note here is Oregon a judgement was recently upheld for a baker that would not bake a cake a LGBT couple and I have heard of such laws being proposed in response to that ruling.
MDC
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The legal basis is a bit strange. Both supporters and opponents of the RFRA have made the claim that it will allow businesses to refuse to do business with gays and lesbians. There's no case law or precedent that supports that claim, though, and ultimately it may not actually be true. (RFRA laws have long existed at the federal level and in 19 states, so there was opportunity.) But after Burwell v. Hobby Lobby Stores, Inc., there is a lot of uncertainty about how else RFRA might be applied, and both the rush to pass RFRA laws in 11 more states and the pushback against them (which never existed before) presumably comes from that.
That does mean it might be hard to find a state to move to that does not have an RFRA already though.... Where do you move a big con like this? Chicago? Illinois passed their RFRA in 1998, before it was an issue. Florida did that same year. Maybe San Diego? It passed but was vetoed in California.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_Freedom_Restoration_Act and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burwell_v._Hobby_Lobby_Stores,_Inc. are useful to anyone interested.
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I really think the intent of these laws is horrible. It's essentially taking us back in time. They're legally justifying prejudice. If you run a public business you should be required to serve people who are not breaking a law so long as they are not harmful to your business. I've seen places claim that they are afraid of those they are prejudice against. Afraid how? Do they think associating with a homosexual customer is going to make them homosexual? Seriously.
In the Oregon case they showed the woman in tears because they lost their business as a result of the publicity. She might have won her case, but she lost her business as a result of her publicized beliefs. I really like the karma there. She learned her bigotry has a price. You can tell the world what you think, but be careful that the world doesn't learn that what you think is prejudice and spiteful. What ended up being harmful to her business? Her. Touche I say.
Any business can refuse the right to serve anyone without needing to provide a reason. Situations like this, where we are validating hateful reasoning, do not do anything other than promote that hate... because they are free to refuse service without giving a reason. But when you publicly voice an opinion you had better be prepared for the world to judge you based on that opinion.
On the Hobby Lobby thing, I think that's a stupid one also. It's the result of this "Businesses are people" BS. No, they are not. They were made so for political reasons and that reason is so that they can work around political contribution rules.
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Lets stop the political discussion right here. This is not the forum for it.
If you want to comment about the possibility of Gencon moving that's fine - but this will not become a battleground between left and right wing views on the topic of whether or not the business should be allowed to refuse to serve someone.
Consider this a general warning to everyone. Thank you!
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Yeah, probably a good idea. :)
Considering how much discussion goes on about moving the Convention somewhere else (due to growth) and the results of those discussions being GenCon stating they have not found a better location I'm a little curious how serious they are. Don't get me wrong, I know Peter personally as a passing acquaintance and I know he and the people that work with him all seem like good people who do support what they are saying... but when it comes down to brass tacks, while I would stop short of calling this a publicity stunt (cause I really don't think it is), I wonder if they are truly willing to back it up.
If you follow GenCon at all and read the forums, moving the Con is a constant topic of debate. GenCon themselves have pretty consistently said they don't see a better option. I don't know if I 100% agree with that, but I'm taking their word for it since they obviously know WAY more about the logistics than I do. They are also likely gun-shy about moving the Con too far away due to the failures of the other GenCon offshoots. So, do their political/moral beliefs trump their concerns with the logistics and costs of other locations? And, will anyone even remember this conversation in 2020?
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Being a million-mile flyer with American Airlines, I vote for Dallas. :) Or if that's too big of a city, Charlotte.
Otherwise, it doesn't matter to me. (Of course, New York would be convenient but probably way too expensive)
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Oh man, the debate about location goes on and on in the GenCon forums. I participated for a while, but eventually gave up. So many people don't understand the business side of things, making completely unreasonable suggestions either out of ignorance or selfishness, and GenCon steadfastly refuses to discuss it in any real detail. I don't blame them either from both a business standpoint (making waves with the city organizers, although they've completely done that in this situation) or from a trying to control a mob of shouting customers standpoint.
The only arguments against certain locations that I fully agree with is the fact that the East Coast has much higher population density (a lot of people drive in rather than have to fly) and there are politics in regards to the labor pool in some locations (labor unions mucking things up). If it were not for those factors there are a few locations I can think of that would work really well. So, it's going to stay on the East Coast no matter what I suspect, but as to the city... it comes down to a very large, very combined event location and a large number of hotels within walking distance (although your opinion of 'walking distance' might vary).
For example, Vegas seems like a good idea to many... even me at first. I believe the hotel situation is better overall and it's far cheaper than many locations to fly to, however if you spread events out you make it much more difficult to get from one event to another quickly, which would not be popular. It's one of the locations that there are labor politics involved with if I remember right. It's also not in a location that allows near as many people to drive to... there's just no getting away from the East Coast on that count.
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I don't see Vegas working because it's a different kind of environment - lights, shows, excitement...
Gencon is more about hanging out and gaming (at least the one I went to was...)
I agree about East Coast, but you need to avoid the big cities (NY, Philadelphia, Boston, Washington DC, as well as the state of Florida).
Atlanta doesn't seem like a good fit to me.
Baltimore is an interesting option, as would be Charlotte, NC.
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The #1 issue is proximity to population. Obviously the East Coast is the place. As much as I'd love for it to be in Seattle (GenCon's home town no less) or even California you won't get anywhere near as many of the car travelers to come even if all the current West Coast non-attendees started going. The East Coast sits at around 38% of the US population and the West Coast around 16% (gulf coast is about 12%). The East Coast is also easier to fly into from Europe and while that's not a huge number it is more than the rest of parts of the world. End result, if it left the East Coast it would almost be a guaranteed drop in attendance.
The #2 issue is finding a venue that has the space. You need to be able to reasonably walk from one event to another within say, 10mins time or so. Just GenCon's merchant room is over 200,000 sq ft (about 3 1/2 football fields), which is packed (and some companies choose to use a separate room). The convention center has 1.3M sq ft, although I believe that includes the stadium, which has not been used yet (it's under 190,000 sq feet though).
The #3 issue is finding a VERY large number of hotel rooms within a reasonable distance. I'm just going to say, within 8 blocks. There are venues that have more closer, but the outer perimeter may not and you have to find this after you find a convention center big enough.
The #4 issue is the local unions. This is more of a cost issue and a dislike of the gaming companies to not be able to handle their own logistics. A few locations that would work have been shot down because the labor has to be done by local workers due to unions. So you aren't allowed to do your own setup and tear-down, you have to use the local labor (which costs).
Now, #1 through #3 have some possibilities... but #4 comes down to a question of additional cost. So, it might come down to is GenCon willing and able to pay for their stance?
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I will vote for anyplace outside the state of Texas. ;D
MDC
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London. Much easier to get to.
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London works for me and the GCP and Aurigas teams
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Grand Rapids, MI.
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London would be great.
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Hmmm. London. I might be able to deal with that. I'd just combine a trip to Europe in general with GenCon. I do both about every 4-5 years... so that might just kill two birds with one stone.
But, if we're daydreaming here, why wouldn't GenCon just do it in the same city as their offices. So I happen to live there too. Just sayin'.
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If we are dreaming I vote for the moon, space station,a group of cruise ships in convoy or the bottom of the sea. ;D
MDC
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There was an RPG cruise I saw many years ago that went to Nassau.
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I'll 2nd Grand Rapids as I work there or even Baltimore. I have housing at either location. Although Indy is only 2.5 hours away. But Indy means hotel rooms or a cab ride and stay in truck for the event.
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Heck why not just put it on a cruise ship... The Rates for housing would nearly be the same :-P
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Gov. Pence signed the bill into law this morning. It's GenCon's move now.
CNN Story (http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/25/politics/mike-pence-religious-freedom-bill-gay-rights/index.html)
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Vegas Baby! Vegas....!?!!?!
Gaming and poker....count me in. 8)
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I read that Vegas isn't a great place for gamer conventions as to many people opt to gamble, see shows, etc, reducing attendance numbers.
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For Vegas you just have to go early and stay late. ;D
But also gamer's are not normal convention go'ers. :o
MDC
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The only drawback to Vegas would be that I don't think they could fit the entire convention close enough together to make getting from one event to another. But other than that I'd love it. I really can't spend more than 3-4 days in Vegas before I'm bored with it. So taking a week, 'doing' Vegas for Mon-Weds, then GenCon Thurs-Sun would kinda be cool.
One of the really cool things is everything is open round the clock. I think only New York can beat Vegas on that count. Just done with a 10pm four hour slot and are staving? Not a problem.
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Cory,
I can second that after moving from near a big city to a rural area is that I miss the sheer amount of restaurants and the fact that they tended to be open later and more often.
MDC
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Vegas....probably bad for the attendees/gamers themselves (line of credit, sir?) but, could be the best thing for the RPG industry as a whole? Given that the industry already peaked "way back when" in general terms (ie. revenue, new RPG young gamers, impact of video games, etc), a little Vegas-style hype and media coverage probably couldn't hurt. Just my $.02, I'm no marketing analyst (just an armchair one). Besides, if it was in Vegas, like Cory I would go a day or two early and get in my poker fix. 8)
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One of the really cool things is everything is open round the clock. I think only New York can beat Vegas on that count. Just done with a 10pm four hour slot and are staving? Not a problem.
New York shuts down, just later then most places.
Vegas is truly all night....
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I do not remember the Gen Con dates but does it not traditionally run into World Series of Poker dates?
Does anybody know if there has been any serious contenders to take away Gen Con in the past?
What I am really interested in is,
Anyway now that the bill has passed I am always very curious to see if $ flows into the state or if $ flows out of the state because of the law. In the past there has not been that big of an impact but I think now that in the future there may be a an impact.
MDC
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NCAA is threatening to pull out. Move their HQ and stop the March Tourney. The letter released even suggested the BIG 10 move its Championship Tourney.
Equality under the law is being demanded. Love it.
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New York shuts down, just later then most places.
Vegas is truly all night....
I've been in a deli in NY at like 3-4am and it was still about 30-40% full! Now, that was 25 years ago... but I can't imagine that's changed too much.
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NCAA is threatening to pull out. Move their HQ and stop the March Tourney. The letter released even suggested the BIG 10 move its Championship Tourney.
Equality under the law is being demanded. Love it.
I have to say I'm encouraged by this. Things like this shouldn't be getting passed by, effectively, small groups of fanatics (which is what a lot of politicians are becoming imo) without the input from the general population.
The thing that gets me, is that so many of those who want to segregate themselves from different people want to make a statement out of it. Businesses have the right to refuse service, it's when they try to make a political statement about it that they tend to get themselves in trouble. Although, as I said before, it often tends to have a karmatic impact on their bottom line.
Hopefully he'll get voted out of office next time round and hopefully they'll ask people why and they'll point to this as one of the causes.
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My impression is that Las Vegas deliberately tries to confuse people as to whether it's day or night. Admittedly, most of my knowledge of Vegas comes from CSI...
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Guys - please leave the political discussion out of this.
There are also many people who could take the opposite position which will not lead to either side changing their opinion - but would end up with hurt feelings and frustration across the board.
This is the last warning on this... next time I will have no choice but to close the thread.
Thanks
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I don't know how many have noticed, but in Vegas there are no clocks in the Casino and if you follow the pathways from the doors to the elevators you often find it is far from the most direct route... they want you to see lots of things before you make it to the elevator.
Guys - please leave the political discussion out of this.
There are also many people who could take the opposite position which will not lead to either side changing their opinion - but would end up with hurt feelings and frustration across the board.
This is the last warning on this... next time I will have no choice but to close the thread.
Thanks
Not to give you a hard time Thom, but the political nature of the situation was kinda the point of the initial post, this is the general discussion forum, and no one seems to be up in arms about anyone else's opinions thus far. By enlarge the people on the ICE forums are pretty polite.
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Cory -
I lived through numerous arguments over political discussions on these boards, so I will not even let it start.
Feel free to discuss the political aspect on political forums.
Thanks
Thom
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One politician from Washington State is already courting GenCon. His sales pitch: "Seattle is the center of the geek universe. Come play with us."
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As much as I love the idea of GenCon being in Seattle (I live about 20mins away from downtown) there's just no way I see it ever happening. I don't think we have a large enough self-contained space and Seattle is about as removed as you can get from most the other population centers (well, with the exception of Alaska and Hawaii) and we don't have near the number of attached hotels to those spaces. The one location in Seattle that might work space wise is the Seattle Center (old worlds fair site), but there are not many hotels close to it, so transportation would likely be a nightmare for out of towners.
I do think a WotC Con would be a good idea...
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A side note, one thing that drives me crazy is when politicians pass laws and then realize that there are problems with such legislation and then have to go back and pass more legislation to fix said bill. IMHO if various people along the chain did their job they would not have to go back and fix it in the first place.
MDC
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It's amazing how messed up some of our laws and law-making is.
Just a few years ago a small tax came off of peoples phone service bills. It was a tax imposed to pay for the Spanish-American War! Things like that are one of the reasons they have a hard time getting people to vote for taxes to pay for certain things... because they know the money will get shuffled off elsewhere and the tax will remain in place far to long. People ranted and raved about the old stadium here in Seattle (the Kingdome) not even being paid for when it was brought down to make a new one. The reason is because they'd constantly funneled money away from the tax that was created to pay for it. What they need to do is, in the legalities of the tax, say that once the tax raises X amount of dollars it expires.
A friend and I once joked about driving around in the fog in Seattle with one of us on the hood of the car holding a lantern... why? Because, guess what, there's still a law on the books that says you have to!
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I do not remember the Gen Con dates but does it not traditionally run into World Series of Poker dates?
Just FYI - Looks like you could play....and play. ;D
WSOP 2015 (Vegas): May 27th - July 14th
GENCON 2015 (Indy...for now): July 30th - August 2nd
http://www.wsop.com/2015/2015-wsop-schedule.pdf
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Thanks for the dates, I do remember them moving dates around when they went to a 2 step tournament with the "top 10" play off's being at a later time. I just did not remember when it was.
I also think the Hot August Nights event would not put a huge impact in things but I have herd that at time the event can get huge and boisterous.
MDC