Topic: Suggestion - Beguiling Voice - Command dilemma

[munchy]

Hi,
could someone with more experience with those spells in the game could explain the difference, and maybe also the advantages of each of the three spells.

Suggestion - Beguiling Voice - Command

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

Suggestion is a persuasive magic - "Drop your weapon because you are losing anyway and we don't really want to kill you". It is a single suggestion where the target (if he fails the RR) has to fulfil regardless of how long it takes.

Command is a control magic - "Drop your weapon" regardless of whether the target is winning, losing, etc. If the target fails the RR, the target is still only controlled for the duration of the spell - so if the order takes longer than that to complete, tough on the caster.

Beguiling Voice is a duping magic - "This is not the magical weapon you are looking for". The target cannot doubt the caster for as long as the spell is running; thereafter the target will still believe the duping until given irrefutable evidence to the contrary.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

[munchy]

Right, excellent explanation. Thanks.

Are the PP cost correct with all of them? Somehow "Beguiling Voice" sounds to be more or less the best of the spells, especially bettere than "Suggestion" ... although the "regardless of how ling it takes" seems to be the catch here, right? Would enable you to make a trusted advisor or bank clerk open the safe or not pushing the alarm button when you are in the bank as it is not his money you are robbing and no one will know that he was involved in a way.
Planning murder also seem quite easy with this one if you tell a person to be somewhere at a specific time as this is definitely not something that is against his nature.

[munchy]

Beguiling Voice seems to be extremely powerful and very easy to abuse. I have a cleric in my group is able to make a merchant baron believe himself to be the cleric's best friend, make a troll be his minion, and so on. Is that intended or to I handle the spell wrong?
The troll might be a problem if he is charging the group because the spell probably won't incluence him fast enough but in more peaceful situations it might work quite well.

Any thoughts? Any experience? Any suggestions?

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

Beguiling Voice seems to be extremely powerful and very easy to abuse. I have a cleric in my group is able to make a merchant baron believe himself to be the cleric's best friend, make a troll be his minion, and so on. Is that intended or to I handle the spell wrong?

So what arguments etc is the Cleric putting forward to the merchant baron or the troll such that the baron or the troll believes the new relationship? The merchant baron may be persuaded by a relative or another friend that the Cleric is not actually a friend. Or when the Cleric does something that a friend or a master would not do, then the the baron and the troll are free.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

[munchy]

Okay, here I go again at Beguiling Voice:

I was again wondering how this spell worked. The description talks about reasoning and ideas. Would it be possible to yell 'halt' at someone fleeing and make him stop?
As I read the spell it sounds more like a spell that supports a conversation and makes the speakers arguments more plausible, in fact undeniable by the listener. Making someone who is running away from you or storming towards you stop, does not seem to be within the capability of the spell as it is more an order, not really an idea or reasoned argument brought forth to the target.

How do you deal with this spell?

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

Beguiling Voice is meant, indeed, to be about a conversational convincing of the target. You want someone to Halt, use Command.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

[Thom @ ICE]

If the caster called, "Watch out, there's a pit trap ahead of you!"
I'd allow an adjusted RR to see if the person fleeing believed it.  Of course, they may just alter direction and run around the "pit trap", but it would have a decent chance of slowing them down, or influencing them to run into a dead end.

[Pat]

I would also suggest that the receiver of the spell must be able to understand the command (i.e. speak the same language) I don't think I'd allow a player to beguile a troll as a companion unless he spoke a language both understood. Even if they have a limited spoken understanding I would probably put a penalty (or bonus to RR) if the caster only has a few ranks in the language spoken.

[RandalThor]

I sounds to like Beguiling Voice adds a bonus to a conversational skill attempt, like Con or Duping, and it is still up to the PC to make the argument. (Though, the spell will make whatever argument sound much more plausible because the spell caster sounds more plausible.)

But, I don't know where the spell is coming from as I cannot find it the Main Book or the Codex. Could someone point to the location of the disputed spells? All three, if possible.

[GrumpyOldFart]

Beguiling Voice, College of Magics, pg. 78. Haven't spotted the other 2.

[Pat]

Suggestion and Command are both in Codex under Mystic Circle.

[RandalThor]

From what I read:

Beguiling Voice - You can convince someone you are right about something, but it doesn't make them do anything. You will still have to convince them of that, but are likely to get a bonus. Convincing someone that letting you into the castle might be a good idea, but if that guard knows what will happen to him from his superiors if they find out (or you once they open the door), getting him to open the door might still be a problem, though less of one after the spell. The spell might just be the only thing that even makes this possible, at all; otherwise there is no chance of getting the guard to open the door.

Command - Is just what it says it is; you give the individual a direct command, though it cannot be the antithesis of their beliefs or well-being. Pretty straight forward. If the guard (above) believe they or their lord will be killed/harmed if they let you in, then the spell should not work. If they believe that letting you in will not harm themselves or their lord (or anyone they truly care about, really), then the spell should work. Anything short of direct harm will be done, it is the most powerful and direct of the 3 spells. I would say, due to the spells power, that even something that could be harmful to the target might be obeyed, provided the spellcaster is high enough level (beyond the target) and the target whiffs their RR (by a large margin). So, a high level evil mage, can tell the lowly man-at-arms to poke his own eye out, it just takes a large level discrepancy and a poor RR. But that is just my own evil take on the spell.

Suggestion - To me, this spell is just the uber-subtle version of command, though it does have the added trouble of needing the spellcaster to have a reasoned argument/idea. Ultimately, it is the sneaky characters method of accomplishing a goal while leaving very little evidence behind, and possibly leaving the blame on someone else. ("Thoughtful" and "subtle" being the key words in the spells description.) It also has the added benefit of a much greater "duration" than the others; as long as it takes for the suggested action to accomplish. So, if you find the guard the night before you need to get into the castle, you can work the spell on them then, and if successful, they will perform the action when they are next on duty, even if that is days away. Very nice.