Official ICE Forums
Iron Crown Enterprises => ICE News and Discussion => Topic started by: Thom @ ICE on December 30, 2010, 12:37:01 PM
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My apologies to those of you who may have received the announcement more than once. Unfortunately I did not take into account overlapping membergroups when I issued the announcement.
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I have a question regarding the announcement.
Will 13Mann (the German translators) still hold the license to Rolemaster in German?
Thanks!
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Unfortunately I can not comment on that issue at this time - but we are working towards that result. When more information is available we will definitely announce it.
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May I offer my support and my hopes for the new and invigorated ICE.
Let 2011 be a great new year for us all........
:wave:
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So, RMFRP or RM Classic.....or both?
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Ouch, right to the cutting edge of the angry can of worms.
It seems to me there was a Guild Companion editiorial a year or so ago where Nicholas said he felt you just had to support both as stuff came in for them at this point because the knot's just too tangled to cut.
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The simple answer is BOTH
Guild Companion Publications - GCP - is the new licensee for HARP, RM, SM & Cyberspace (among others)
All of their titles have been dual-stated in both RM versions, and this process will continue (for example, in revising the shadow world line, rmss stats are being added, and HARP stats will be added in due course). However, please note that I am not an official spokesperson for GCP.
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I would think that it is a question whether you find authors for the different systems. If not, it is probably difficult to keep them running but from what could be seen on the forums there are quite a number of people who work their own stuff for RMFRP/RMSS and RMC, so I hope for a wide range of product although I have to admit that I have become a HARP-guy and only buy the RMC stuff out of nostalgia at the moment.
Hope to see a lot of new material, especially on SW and Cyradon, as well as new rule and source books for HARP. Can't wait until 2011 starts with all those things on the horizon!
Wishing everyone here a "Guten Rutsch" as we say in Germany - it roughly translates into a good slide or good move over into the new year!
Enjoy your New Year's Eves all around!
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What happened to REVISION 3, then abandon the old lines?
I have never seen any other rpg release a new edition and then continue to sell old edition material. That makes little sense.
The last several years have apparently shown the owners the current approach is a financial bust. So why continue on it?
Peace to all, and happy new year.
:wave:
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I have never seen any other rpg release a new edition and then continue to sell old edition material. That makes little sense.
GURPS
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Any consideration for a new revision is one for another day.
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I have never seen any other rpg release a new edition and then continue to sell old edition material. That makes little sense.
GURPS
GURPS...yuck.
ANother five plus years then of the same ole same ole? Glorious.
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GURPS...yuck.
Lots more GURPS players say "Rolemaster... yuck" than the other way 'round.
;D
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I play both, though I prefer RM (overall). Both have their good points and their bad points.
Lets hope this new year will be the Year of the Crit Table.
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huh...I wonder if the people who like GURPS are the people who like RMSS? That would be very interesting from a demographic perspective.
I would say GURPS has never made me shout I love this game quite like RMSS does but I really do like a lot of things about GURPS.
That said, as I've said before, the only way I'm interested in a new editon of RM is if they pay me to write it :D
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Just my speculations... I don't work for any of these guys, I'm a freelancer (I've had people mistake me for an official ICE employee before).
A new version would take, in my opinion, at least a couple years to get near completion. To give you guys all an idea, when we did the Channeling Companion the time frame that I sent in the proposal to hitting the shelves was right at about one year... and that was relatively quick for a full fledged ICE book. Even once new goals and desired changes are agreed upon it still takes quite some time to get the books put together and to the 'shelf'. However, it's my opinion if that if RM wants to remain a viable system a new version is what's required even if it is more along the lines of light modification, fine tuning and re-organization.
The current version, supported or not up to this point, is RMFRP. But RM2 (RMC essentially) is still quite popular with the vocal fan base. It's difficult to know the real numbers without at least having a look at the sales of all the various publications and even then it would be hard to draw a conclusion due to the fact that it's been quite some time since a RMFRP publication was put out (RMQ's don't count). I won't get into what I think the reasons are that RMFRP stopped getting worked on, the fact that this is happening is a big enough indicator that whatever they were it wasn't good enough. Although I will say with "new management" you might see some authors become more willing to consider new projects, so there's some hope there. The downside is things will move slowly since, essentially, you're going to have most the people controlling the development of the system doing it as their secondary 'job'. Although, not to spit on anyone's grave, considering the lack of progress on RMFRP in the past years it might actually see an increase in efforts.
So, as someone else pointed out, for the near future I think things will likely remain largely as-is. RMFRP is still the 'current' version, RMC projects will likely still be worked on short term, but a new version is almost surely the long term goal. In my opinion if the system wants to stay alive it HAS to be the long term goal. HARP, while it has seen some slowing appears to be in fairly good shape for the most part and, if anything is done to it I think it should become the gateway game to RM (much as MERP used to be) depending on how any potential changes to RM go. The spell learning mechanic is the one major difference between the two systems and could pose a problem attempting to make them sister systems.
In my opinion the biggest serious issue faced will be marketing. When you have a print on demand product that basically means you don't have a product on the shelf, which is a big problem. A large percentage of the game store owners do not even realize there was a second incarnation of ICE, and now there may not even be books printed for them to order to put on their shelves if/when they discover there's a third incarnation of ICE. If anyone expects ICE products to become anywhere near as popular as they used to be there needs to be an ad campaign and there needs to be a convention presence of some sort. Fans can handle word of mouth, and in my opinion that is the only advertising that the game systems have seen for a long time. Fans may also be able to handle the convention presence if an effort is made to officially organize it - this is something of a soap box of mine with Mjolnir. I don't think they ever really took marketing seriously. They had people that could have gone so far as establishing and manning a booth in the merchant rooms of some of the conventions, let alone run ICE based game events at those conventions, if they'd just purchased the space (yes, I know, that takes $$$) and provided some product. ICE staff themselves should have been able to attend two of the the biggest cons however as it's about a 450mile trip to either GenCon or Origins. I don't know how many times I've said this to various ICE staff over the years: If you want people to know you're around, GenCon is the place to be. My opinion is that saying you don't 'have the money' to go to GenCon is saying that you don't have the money to survive as a commercially viable game system. If you expect to gain new customers you must advertise. Scrape and scratch up every friggin last dime you can to get there at least just once. Tell the world you exist again. Ask fans that are going to be there anyhow volunteer to help setup, man the booth, hell ask for donations is you have to. Just GO TO GENCON.
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Posted this in another thread, but thought it might be a good idea to cross-post it here too.
Something worth mentioning also for everyone... no one has said that Mjolnir is going out of business, declaring bankruptcy, or anything along those lines. They simply no longer hold the licenses for the table top games.
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I can tell you definitively that the next few years for the product lines will be very different from how things have been in the past. Look to the Shadow World Player Guide for how different our approach can be.
There will be a series of announcements as to what is happening as things that have been planned can now be put into motion and things that we have discussed can now be properly planned. You'll see news on the Guild Companion editorial and in postings to the website home page and this forum.
Happy New Year to all of you
Best wishes,
Nicholas
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@Corey: Channeling Companion was my favorite book for RMFRP. Balanced, well thought-out, and crunchy. :D
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@Corey: Channeling Companion was my favorite book for RMFRP. Balanced, well thought-out, and crunchy. :D
Thanks! :) Just gotta be careful on the balance of making custom Semi-Priests. Kinda wish I'd covered that with a little more sterner warning in the book.
Maybe if a revision or republish is done. I'd be nice to get the few mistakes removed too.
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I hope things go well in 2011 for the products, I have been playing some iteration of RM since 1985 and would hate to see it go away. I have to agree on what was said by Cory about books on the shelf. As a long time game demoer (is that a word?) I can tell you first hand that people want to be able to look at a book before purchasing it. I have seen people wave a hand and dismiss a game over not having a book to look at, so I hope that whatever marketing strategy that in planned can over come that obsticle. That being said, I will continue to support the games I love no matter what, so good luck.
Ron
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Perhaps it would be a good idea to change the info on the company page on the ICE homepage?
It still gives all the info for Mjolnir, including e-mails for Bruce and Heike.
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Actually those addresses and information are stated as specific to the Mjolnir Games Store, but I can see where they would create confusion. I'll edit the page to remove them now that Mjolnir Games is no longer carrying ICE products. Thanks for pointing it out.
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Will ICE still be selling through traditional hobby channels (i.e. brick-and-mortar shops)?
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Will ICE still be selling through traditional hobby channels (i.e. brick-and-mortar shops)?
Mjollnir barely sold through real stores anyway, with many store unable to even order product, so I think availability will be better overall.
The trick will be to let folks know the product exists....I suspect the new team will be more progressive and affective in this respect.
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But the answer is no, at least at the moment the plan seems to be to sell through rpgnow and drivethroughrpg, who are just unrolling a print on demand program.
The trick will indeed be in letting people know that the products exist, I think.
As for availability, all gaming stores I have been in lately (in Germany) did have newer ICE books, Harp, RM FRP and even RM C in some cases. So for some reason
distribution in Germany was better than the US for some time.
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I have been thinking some...it sort of feels like we have walked the full circle. When the first ICE went up in smoke there was plenty of talk among the fans about buying the RM Ip and making the fans themselves empowered to make new products. The things stopping us then was mostly problem assembling the needed funds, print-on-demand being too expensive and too new and the fear of not having books out in the stores to draw new fans. There is real danger from disappearing from the front line stores, something that happened to classical model-building essentially died from not getting new blood. On the other hand the world with its increased use of the Internet has changed since that time. GCP and Aurigas seems to aim to do what the fans wanted to do back then, and perhaps it is really can be made to work this time.
If we look frankly at facts HARP has been a zombie product for years with no real support. Great ideas like Something Wicked would never materialize because HARP SciFi taking all the resources. Much could be said about why HARP SciFi is still not here, but I suspect a large part of the delay can be attributed to stuff like HARP LE and RMC stealing time from the Mjolnir crew. The same can be said for Cyradon that would have needed more support to gain momentum.
The crucial thing here is not version bashing or putting RM and HARP in opposite corners, rather it is about the idea that there have been narrow sections in the design process. A small company like Mjolnir had too many product lines to support and total throughput got reduced to nothing as delays with one product would harm the process to develop other products. If GCP can make sure the narrow sections between product lines are not dependent on the same people (llke HARP SciFi and Something Wicked) then they can probably increase the fan base. The essential thing is having products appear in a steady fashion so that people will not get burnt on waiting on new toys. The approval process from Aurigas is most likely one of the (new?) narrow sections of the new set up, but hopefully things will improve.
With all this said I must also comment RMC and RMSS. I think RMC was an idea built on a dream about the RM2 crowd returning if just their favorite edition was resurrected. Sorry to say, but I don't think this ever will happen. Old RM2 fans are too old to visit gaming stores, heck they are probably too old to actively checking if their favorite edition is back in print. To make things worse, the years of lack of support for RMSS have essentially forced the same state on us RMSS fans. What is the likelihood really that any RMSS fans still expect their edition to get support after these years of lack of attention?
So where are we now? Hopefully we are moving into the future when presence at DriveThrougRPGs mean more new blood coming into fan-base than a neglected shelf in a limited number of gaming stores. Marketing on the Internet will be hard, but why should it be harder to win on Facebook with print-on-demand services than with a webstore on the ICE site that nobody knows about?
I think that GCP should focus on Harp, Harp SciFi and Cyradon for the time being. An honest "we will wait with RM until later" is much better than "it is fully supported (but won't get any real support beyond the RMC books)". RMC at DriveThrougRPGs will not make any impact at all if you ask me, you won't ever get market buzz over a revised version of RM2. Getting as many RM books available as possible is essential for GCP to learn how to handle multiple projects in parallel, but the next thing for RM need to be a new edition that include the RM core and have RMC and RMSS as addons.
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FYI, on the "global interest of the RPG community for RM related things" topic, The Shadow World Player Guide is today in the 12th position on the top 100 list of Rapide JDR (French sister of RPG Now)... Knowing that the only french translated SW product was "The Orgilion Horror" back in the days and that the SW Player Guide was added on this site in September, it looks like an item of hope to me.
http://www.rapidejdr.fr/top_100.php
(amusing site name, rapide in french means fast, and it's one of the slowest sites I know :)...
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In my (relativley small) experience, HARP was the only ICE game that players of 3rd and 4th edition of "you know what" were willing to try...
Players and GMs of any RM version have all the books they need to play for some decades. HARP is more friendly to convert or bring in new gamers, and there is still plenty of room for new books.
Throw in a streamlined v2 with more options (combat à la carte, more or less skills, different casting spells options, etc.) and a major adventure path à la Paizo, and you could sell some, in my opinion... Many gamers today don't have time to write their own adventures, so you need to provide adventures with your system. As you can also double or tri-stat with free PDFs, you could have a wide audience for this (HARP, RM, d20).
For a HARP v2, I would think of a very simple core, with a lot of options in an "Options Book", Ã la Unearthed Arcana. New RPG rules should have a very simple core, people don't have time to digest 400 pages behemoth rules anymore. And then add every two or three months an expansion booklet (64 pages, cheap, color) with new professions, races, spells, talents, monsters, etc. Interesting to mix, as GMs AND players would like to buy it. Mixed with adventures, it should make the internet talk and generate a lot of interest.
For the setting, I would go with Shadow World, it's so hard to bring in an interesting non licenced setting these days...
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The Shadow World Player Guide is today in the 12th position on the top 100 list of Rapide JDR (French sister of RPG Now)... Knowing that the only french translated SW product was "The Orgilion Horror" back in the days and that the SW Player Guide was added on this site in September, it looks like an item of hope to me.
Perversedly SW was a hit in France... Hexagonal didn't know on what they were sitting. ;)
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Too Old to check what the latest version is! ;D
BTW, I started with RM2 in the late 90's but had the game that a friend had given me back in 85'.
MDC
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The French often like things Americans don't.
To old...lol. I started playing RM in the mid 80's myself. Bought the 1st edition in that big box. Inside the origin of the moniker chartmaster was born because all the tables were printed on cardboard stock.
I have no problem navigating the net you young whiper snapper.
This restructuring needs to support the lines they opt to keep. Really, thats it. New product beats reprints. Gamers are collecters at heart. We buy books just cuz they might be useful or sound very cool or have great art work, et al. Back that up with a quality game and product, and you will generate sales.
As small as this company is, they need designers to write new stuff. A game world with regular releases. VAMPIRE did so well because of the clan books. Heck, you did not need lots of clan books, but by gum you WANTED them. When I gave my Vampire stuff away, it was a sizable stack of stuff.
My point is no company can make any money or become popular without product to sell. I agree with pastaav that one line of RM should be declared the chose, then run with THAT RM, HARP and Space Master, or shuck them all but one: whatever. Just release stuff every month.
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To old...lol. I started playing RM in the mid 80's myself. Bought the 1st edition in that big box. Inside the origin of the moniker chartmaster was born because all the tables were printed on cardboard stock.
I had that stuff once. :)
This restructuring needs to support the lines they opt to keep. Really, thats it. New product beats reprints. Gamers are collecters at heart. We buy books just cuz they might be useful or sound very cool or have great art work, et al. Back that up with a quality game and product, and you will generate sales.
Unfortunately if you want your game system to stay alive as a viable product for the game company you essentially have to reprint every so often. How often depends I guess, but I'd say 5 at the quickest and 10 at the slowest. You will eventually run out of quality material to publish and, at that point, it's either start over with a new version or abandon that system (or, in D&D's case - live off your name and just start putting crap out - which was the start of the end for TSR).
As small as this company is, they need designers to write new stuff. A game world with regular releases.
I won't bother commenting on the 1st and 2nd incarnations of ICE and how they functioned, but with the newest ICE we're about to see I am sure the problem with what you would like to see is that there will be no dedicated designers to write new stuff. I suspect everyone involved will be doing it as their second job, even the 'official employees'. I'm honestly shocked that people like Tim were able to work for ICE as their primary job (and I'll bet you he had a secondary job). The table top game market just won't support a purely table top role-playing game company. Wizards of the Coast is the only company that stands a chance of doing that and I really don't think they even could. Maybe if you actually had a gamer in charge of it again, maybe. But I really doubt even that is possible.
My point is no company can make any money or become popular without product to sell. I agree with pastaav that one line of RM should be declared the chose, then run with THAT RM, HARP and Space Master, or shuck them all but one: whatever. Just release stuff every month.
I think that continuing in the immediate future with the RMC run is smart for a number of reasons, both legal and market-wise. I don't know all the details involved there-in, but I can guess enough based on my past knowledge of and history with ICE to see why that is a good direction to take things initially. However I don't think it will last long and I wish the time they had spent on it had been dedicated to simply revamping RM2/RMSS as a whole into a new version.
HARP I don't really see a huge need to mess with right now. Start putting out some support material for it if possible, don't rock the boat too much on what is considered a fairly good system. While the system has been out for several years, I think it still has some life in it. Just start trying to market it more.
Addition: Forgot to say... I doubt even WotC could put out a decent quality item every month for one game system.
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To clarify my post about people being too old. This has very little to do with people lacking the skills to check what the latest version is and very much about them having too many contending things to keep them busy with other things. Simple truth is that having children eats more time than any single thing. Most RM fans are at the age of having or getting children and if they took a break from RM some years back the likelihood of them actually picking it up again is not very high IMHO. Of course some might do so if they children can be made to look into Roleplaying, but I think World of Warcraft is a much more likely match.
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Please use the following email address in the future
MGBruceN@aol.com
Thanks
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Simple truth is that having children eats more time than any single thing. Most RM fans are at the age of having or getting children and if they took a break from RM some years back the likelihood of them actually picking it up again is not very high IMHO. Of course some might do so if they children can be made to look into Roleplaying, but I think World of Warcraft is a much more likely match.
This sounds very similar to a remark I made offline on this very subject:
As for how well the product line survives... well the whole concept has always been something of a niche market anyway, and any non "Not RM" system even more so. In a lot of ways now the competition isn't with "Not RM", it's with XBoxes, iPod apps and WoW. On that aspect of the problem, I can throw ideas into the hopper all day, to be ground up and spat out... but I'm not a marketing expert and I know it, and keeping the non-computerized RPG industry alive is a problem that has already confounded better minds than me.
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In fact, looking at current trends in society (as much as I keep up with such anyway), I think the next generation of "the real game takes place in your head" type gamers (in other words the ones video games didn't draw off the first time, back when RM1 was new) will likely be doing something vaguely akin to play-by-post via text message.
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There are still going to be people who prefer to interact with other human beings, rather than interacting with a machine that is interacting with other machines which interact with their humans. It's not like this hasn't been a niche hobby for most of its existence. Heck, when AD&D was HUGE it was still a minority of the population that was playing, even among its biggest demographics. The question is how to survive in that niche. Defeatism is definitely the way. Nor, in the short term, is a new edition the answer, or even AN answer. It takes time and resources to do it right, especially if the pipe dream of reconciling RM2 and RMSS is to be pursued (a lost cause, I think - any new edition should be for the purpose of bringing in new customers, not trying to negotiate truces between existing ones).
Of course, it is to the benefit of all of us to expand the player pool. So those with children, raise them as gamers. Run games for your friends children. Don't run games for random neighborhood children whose parents you don't even know; that gives the wrong impression, and doesn't have the cool-factor of the Satanism scare. If you've got spare funds, you might even buy an extra set of the basic books for some favored game and donate them to young geek, or a library, or your local high school's games club, if they have one. I wish ICE could do something about this, but they can't. They need to show up on gamer's radar right now. As for non-gamers, Hasbro/WotC is the only publisher that can get their attention in significant numbers and grow the market. Another subject, for another forum.
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I started playing RM again as soon as my kids were old enough to play it. I started them off with kiddie D&D and then moved into a real RPG. LOL.
The biggest problem I find with getting new players into RM is with the videogame mentality taking everything over, just look at 4E. My kids love because they cut their teeth on it.
I plan to help promote RM in any way I can to help out.
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I haven't posted on the forums for a while but this announcement aroused my interest.
The fate and fortunes of 'ICE Mk X' will probably have very little bearing on my enjoyment of Rolemaster and RPGs generally. I have my system and house rules and could happily stick with them. I suspect that realistically many other 'established' players are in the same boat. My preferred system happens to be RMSS, but I don't really expect 'system support', nor do I really miss it (particularly some of the IMO poor 'Official Rulings' I recall being posted in the forums).
Although I dislike it, I think HARP could be a successful 'gateway' system. In the short term I would focus on it
There have been some very good comments posted here, especially regarding the future of Rolemaster. I think that the plan for Rolemaster should be for a new system. There are many things I would like to see in a new system (like many I others I have posted some ideas on the forums at one time or other), but whether or not they were included I would likely still buy it. I don't think that trying to please all existing players is possible or desirable - just assemble the best available and interested designers (and maybe call for ideas on the forum too), and then task those designers to come up with the best system they can (then edit, produce and test it heavily). Obviously this would all take some time.
Best of luck - let me know if I can help!
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I agree about focusing more on HARP in the near future. I also like the idea of starting work on a new Rolemaster if RMSS/FRP is not going to be supported much anymore.
I will continue to support ICE products as long as they are of the same character I'm used to! :D
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But the answer is no, at least at the moment the plan seems to be to sell through rpgnow and drivethroughrpg, who are just unrolling a print on demand program.
This is too bad. I do all my shopping at a brick-and-mortar games shop. I guess I'll wait until they start to flow through the hobby channels.
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I honestly think you need to redo RM, combining the best of both RMC and RMSS. Having two similar yet different systems is just splitting the fan base of an already niche product.
Also, HARP support can be dropped completely AFAIAC, instead of dropping support of RM.
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Wow. Way to start a flame war danbuter.
I thought trolling was against forum policy...
Btw I fully support harp and disagree entirely with the entire comment.
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Note - Dan's comment was a personal opinion statement where he did not troll, but simply stated his own preference.
Please also note that if anyone ever feels a post was indeed trolling or required moderation, the proper course of action is simply to click the "Report to Moderator" button at the bottom of the post and state your reasoning. We'll look into it and address it as appropriate.
In response to the comments...
Neither RM nor HARP are going to lose support. We've got big plans for both systems going forward under the direction of GCP, but first the focus is on making the products available once again in their current versions.
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I honestly think you need to redo RM, combining the best of both RMC and RMSS. Having two similar yet different systems is just splitting the fan base of an already niche product.
Also, HARP support can be dropped completely AFAIAC, instead of dropping support of RM.
I agree, though HARP can stay.
The new RM needs to abolish all those attack tables, developing new mechanics to replace them. Failing that, at least simplify them greatly. Those tables are remnants and inspired by the ancient 1st edition ADnD. Remember the old Dungoen Master Guide?
Less attack tables, more crit tables, since I have never seen anyone complain about critical tables, though I imagine there is even a limit there too.
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I honestly think you need to redo RM, combining the best of both RMC and RMSS. Having two similar yet different systems is just splitting the fan base of an already niche product.
I can see the sense in that one, if you think there's any possibility of healing the rift between the two fanbases. If not, I don't see what will be gained.
Also, HARP support can be dropped completely AFAIAC, instead of dropping support of RM.
Drop support entirely for the newest line of products the company has put out, while concentrating support on a product line that's a decade or more older... oh yeah, now there's a smart business decision, huh?
:o
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Drop support entirely for the newest line of products the company has put out, while concentrating support on a product line that's a decade or more older... oh yeah, now there's a smart business decision, huh?
:o
I don't think the age of the line in question is an important factor. RM has always been ICE's flagship, and to change that would run the risk of alienating much of the fanbase. While I'm not against continued HARP support, this should be considered on its merits.
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I don't have a problem with supporting RM, although with 4 different versions out I question the sense in adding a fifth, unless it can manage to combine the fanbases of the existing versions. And I suspect that'll be a tall order, although I can't claim to have done the research to know.
But on the other hand, any consideration at all of dropping support for the newest product line makes me wonder what point there was in producing said product line in the first place. Regardless of what system anyone is a fan of, it seems like an idiotic decision from a pure business standpoint.
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I think "healing the rift" involves rewritung RM, and then going with JUSTTHE REWRITE.
The rift will close on its own after there no other choices. Sure, a small but vocal community of old heads wont abandon the old system, proclaiming perfection was achived with the Players Handbook, DMG and Unearthed Arcanna, but the majority, and new customers, will simply move on.
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[...] Sure, a small but vocal community of old heads wont abandon the old system, proclaiming perfection was achived with the Players Handbook, DMG and Unearthed Arcanna, but the majority, and new customers, will simply move on.
Perfection was achieved with the Rule Cyclopaedia. ;D
Back on topic : as long as there is a version of RM and things to support it thing will go well.
From my point of view the main problem of RM has always been the lack of follow up with a specific setting.
yes, there's Shadow World... but either it becomes the official setting and there's lots of stuff edited with regularly new things or RM need to go the GURPS way and have more than ten of officially supported settings.
Nowadays in most case it's more a setting than a game system that sells or not.
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The point we usually forget is that we, the RM (and maybe Harp) fanbase are not exactly the audience that needs to be targeted with any new edition. I doubt that man people who have stuck with RM C through all these years will ever buy another edition of the game. They don't need to, books don't wear out like some of the newer media do. Therefore a new edition would have to target new players and not the old crowd.
Setting now is a different cup of tea, setting is useful for everyone and as long as there are conversion rules around, it could be sold to all sects of RM players.
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I think "healing the rift" involves rewritung RM, and then going with JUSTTHE REWRITE.
The rift will close on its own after there no other choices. Sure, a small but vocal community of old heads wont abandon the old system, proclaiming perfection was achived with the Players Handbook, DMG and Unearthed Arcanna, but the majority, and new customers, will simply move on.
So, what, you'd stop even selling pdfs and PoD of the older RM2/C and RMSS/FRP material? I'd be 100% against doing that. If ICE keep them available and only support the new version with new material, I won't care as much; I don't expect to buy it, but so long as people I want to play with can buy the old material, I'm OK with that.
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Old materials wouldbe kept available, just not expanded on.
The setting idea presented is one I've been thinking about myself. How do you create a setting that is a MUST BUY?
Even if a must buy setting happened, the question of "what are the core game mechanics for it" would surface.
No company can succeed imo by vacillating back and forth: pick the product, produce the product, BELIEVE in the product.
Over the last several months I have brought three early 20 somethings to this website to check out RM. Each balked over confusion of what they needed or even WAS the game. Back in the day, I never had this problem. The new player bought a boxed set and was off and running. While box sets may be a thing of the past, a SINGLE RULE BOOK CONTAINING THE CORE GAME is not. Having THREE versions of the same game is STUPID counter productive. I know this. I have seen this. I have converted masses of people to RM over the years. Now I can't because it appears to dificult to learn AND is a confused mess.
There are reasons the good people of this company failed. The only point in ignoring the failure is a desire to fail again.
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Wow. Way to start a flame war danbuter.
I thought trolling was against forum policy...
Btw I fully support harp and disagree entirely with the entire comment.
I guess you ignored the posts earlier in this same thread saying to drop RM support. ;)
In any case, HARP isn't a great seller. It had it's chance, in a great time period when many were sick of d20, and it didn't make a big impact. Continuing to throw money at it is a loser.
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The new RM needs to abolish all those attack tables, developing new mechanics to replace them. Failing that, at least simplify them greatly. Those tables are remnants and inspired by the ancient 1st edition ADnD. Remember the old Dungoen Master Guide?
Less attack tables, more crit tables, since I have never seen anyone complain about critical tables, though I imagine there is even a limit there too.
That would be an unfortunate change, as then I would have no reason to keep buying both RM and BRP products. I'd just stick with BRP, because it's my favorite skills-based game, but I also like the robust RM combat system. You delete that in the later, and I have no reason to bother with any new RM products.
Do I remember the old Dungeon Masters Guide? Heck, I still use it!
I like diversity in gaming. RM is unlike BRP which is unlike D&D. Ya know, sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't and sometimes you feel like both! :D
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I think that it is possible to make a new RM edition that include all the essence of RMC and RMSS in it. My greatest problem with RMC is not that I think it is bad system but that I think it miss some of the vital improvements that happened in the transition to RMSS. The irony of it is that RMC is championend as the game of options, but it is still lacking the options needed to make it like RMSS.
One of the major reasons we had the flame wars about edition in the RM2 to RMSS switch was the RM editor had his vision about unifying everyones game to use same set of options. Instead of working with making the users get an educated choice about what to use and why his set of options was superior he worked hard to hide the possible options and get one rule book to rule them all. This was the first bad decision that fractured the fan-base. The second bad decision was RMC that reformated RM2 to be more modern, but failed to include the good additions from RMSS.
If we are speaking about specifics...a new RM edition should include a set of professions that include the professions from both RMC and RMSS (to not have magent, dabbler and paladin in the core book does not make sense), added stats bonuses should be an option (or perhaps even the core choice...averaging of bonuses serves very little point), the category system should be given as an option for those that like such. I could go on, but I am sure you get the point.
There is very little that speak for the edition divide being caused by it being impossible to make a joint edition and very much that speaks for that the problem is that there has been no effort at all in making a edition that appeal to both camps. I am sure that both sides can live with if some of the favorite options are just options in a new edition. Make a new spell law that can serve both RMC and RMSS users and I am sure none will complain. When new products are created make sure it work with or without a category system and you suddenly have system that work for both camps. Making a Combat Companion and not dual stat the added professions was a very bad choice that I am sure irritated many RMSS/RMFRP users. If it made some of them so irritated that they did not buy the book I can not say, but the message was obvious...RMFRP had been dumped despite numerous promises that it would be a supported game. Don't repeat that mistake and the joint RM Gold Edition is a very real posibility.
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Wow. Way to start a flame war danbuter.
I thought trolling was against forum policy...
Btw I fully support harp and disagree entirely with the entire comment.
I guess you ignored the posts earlier in this same thread saying to drop RM support. ;)
In any case, HARP isn't a great seller. It had it's chance, in a great time period when many were sick of d20, and it didn't make a big impact. Continuing to throw money at it is a loser.
Do you have any numbers to back up your claims? If not, I would not be so rash in calling Harp a failure. I for one am not sure, which of the three game lines (RM FRP, RM C and Harp) sold the most and which the least in recent years.
Harp has its fan-base and dropping it would not help RM in the least.
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I think that it is possible to make a new RM edition that include all the essence of RMC and RMSS in it. My greatest problem with RMC is not that I think it is bad system but that I think it miss some of the vital improvements that happened in the transition to RMSS. The irony of it is that RMC is championend as the game of options, but it is still lacking the options needed to make it like RMSS.
Because at least some of those were already published, surely, in Companions and the original authors own those rights?
One of the major reasons we had the flame wars about edition in the RM2 to RMSS switch was the RM editor had his vision about unifying everyones game to use same set of options. Instead of working with making the users get an educated choice about what to use and why his set of options was superior he worked hard to hide the possible options and get one rule book to rule them all. This was the first bad decision that fractured the fan-base. The second bad decision was RMC that reformated RM2 to be more modern, but failed to include the good additions from RMSS.
RMC was RM2 republished (including new layout), surely? Not RM2-evolved, or something like that (and where would we get agreement on which were "the good additions")? RMC is what it is, which is effectively almost exactly the same as RM2, which is what people like me -- RM2 fans -- wanted, our game back in print.
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I think that it is possible to make a new RM edition that include all the essence of RMC and RMSS in it. My greatest problem with RMC is not that I think it is bad system but that I think it miss some of the vital improvements that happened in the transition to RMSS. The irony of it is that RMC is championend as the game of options, but it is still lacking the options needed to make it like RMSS.
Because at least some of those were already published, surely, in Companions and the original authors own those rights?
That argument does not make sense. The options that was used to make RMSS is by nature included in RMSS and thus free to use. There are of course options from RM2 companions that never made into RMSS and those can't be used, but that is clearly a separate issue.
One of the major reasons we had the flame wars about edition in the RM2 to RMSS switch was the RM editor had his vision about unifying everyones game to use same set of options. Instead of working with making the users get an educated choice about what to use and why his set of options was superior he worked hard to hide the possible options and get one rule book to rule them all. This was the first bad decision that fractured the fan-base. The second bad decision was RMC that reformated RM2 to be more modern, but failed to include the good additions from RMSS.
RMC was RM2 republished (including new layout), surely? Not RM2-evolved, or something like that (and where would we get agreement on which were "the good additions")? RMC is what it is, which is effectively almost exactly the same as RM2, which is what people like me -- RM2 fans -- wanted, our game back in print.
That is exactly the problem. RM2 was revised into RMC to make people like you happy when it could have been revised into something that did not alienate the RMSS crowd but still made you happy. Perhaps you can argue that your RM2 rules must not get a increased page count due to RMSS inspired options (IMHO it does not make sense since some options from RMSS made it into RMC). Anyhow that could easily be solved by having those options in a separate booklet that you could avoid to buy if you can't stand the thought of paying for RMSS material.
As for the problem of choosing what options that was good, what is the problem really? Do you argue that RM2 fans are not able to handle having extra options listed? What would the harm be if other game groups liked the RMSS inspired options?
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Imagine Wizards going back and creating AD&D 2.5 Heh.
I can't claim to know, since it is decades since I've played any of the versions, but from what I've been told by those I know who have played them, they'd have been better advised to clean up 3.0 or 3.5 than to ever have produced 4.0.
;D
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No, but they ended up giving Kenzer & Co. license to do it as Hackmaster. That was fairly well received. (And eventually done in mainly by the fact that it was a license, rather than the IP-owning company making the game.)
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I think that most if not all of the writers on this forum have their own ideas about what should be in RM. At best we could get a majority on what the game should have. If a new version comes out most of us will have something we dont like in it and therefore modify the game with house rules. We can give our ideas and hope to make our voices heard towards what is in the new version.
We want to have archives and PDF's for the old versions.
But " a new version" that is unified with an "identifiable" core set of rules that new players can easily buy, that can be advertised for to build up the player base, that new additions can developed for, to make a profit for ICE; all this needs to happen for RM not to become some forgotten set of scribblings.
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I don't think dropping support for either RM or Harp is the answer. I think a re-write of RM would go a long way to at least allowing the poor folks who run ICE to focus their efforts on a single product line for RM; the Shadow World Players Guide has been well recived (at least in reviews). I would personally fallow it up with a SW game. You could essentially use the RMX format; leave out the silly stuff like equipment tables & treasures etc; and add a setting like the Bay if Izar. Use a free PDF for any extras (such as the affor mentioned Equipments). Set up a separate web page for it and introduce it as its own game.
I would change HARP over to a pure D20 system & thin out the skills a lot if the intention is to position it as an alternative to D&D. Its a very good game over-all; but seems to suffer from a "little brother" syndrome where it is always compared to RM.
Another suggestion would be to get into the Super Hero games; the players tend to be younger and obviously have some interest in adventure genre....
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Another suggestion would be to get into the Super Hero games; the players tend to be younger and obviously have some interest in adventure genre....
Don't necessary read anything into this comment coming from me, but I have asked for SHARP - Super-Hero Action Role Playing for about 4-5 years now.... ;D
This summer there will be about 3 or 4 major super-hero movies coming out so the timing would probably be great, but right now Green Ronin has a tight grip on that market with their Mutants & Masterminds products and ICE and GCP have a lot of other projects currently being worked on.
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Imagine Wizards going back and creating AD&D 2.5 Heh.
I can't claim to know, since it is decades since I've played any of the versions, but from what I've been told by those I know who have played them, they'd have been better advised to clean up 3.0 or 3.5 than to ever have produced 4.0.
;D
I think if Peter was still in control of WotC you'd see different results than Hasbo's tactics. They just don't get the RPG market imo.
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I like the name. SHARP.
MDC
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Would that make a fan of the game system a sharpie?
:o
In fairness, I suppose a sharpie is the perfect tool to create your comic book superhero with...
;D
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If you do have any thoughts about how to create a HARP based Super Hero game, I'd be glad to discuss the concept offline with you. Just email me.
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@pastaav: I have no fundamental disagreement with resolving RM2 & RMSS. As long as I have my precious weapon & crit tables, then I'm a happy camper. :)
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I think that it is possible to make a new RM edition that include all the essence of RMC and RMSS in it. My greatest problem with RMC is not that I think it is bad system but that I think it miss some of the vital improvements that happened in the transition to RMSS. The irony of it is that RMC is championend as the game of options, but it is still lacking the options needed to make it like RMSS.
Because at least some of those were already published, surely, in Companions and the original authors own those rights?
That argument does not make sense. The options that was used to make RMSS is by nature included in RMSS and thus free to use. There are of course options from RM2 companions that never made into RMSS and those can't be used, but that is clearly a separate issue.
My understanding is that they were, in their Companion form, subject to all the same problems all the other work-for-hire was, that copyright no longer resides with ICE. As to why they were able to incorporate stuff into RMSS that was trailed in RM 2 Companions, I guess they worked something out, or it was different enough, or being embedded in a new complete game was the difference, or something like that.
One of the major reasons we had the flame wars about edition in the RM2 to RMSS switch was the RM editor had his vision about unifying everyones game to use same set of options. Instead of working with making the users get an educated choice about what to use and why his set of options was superior he worked hard to hide the possible options and get one rule book to rule them all. This was the first bad decision that fractured the fan-base. The second bad decision was RMC that reformated RM2 to be more modern, but failed to include the good additions from RMSS.
RMC was RM2 republished (including new layout), surely? Not RM2-evolved, or something like that (and where would we get agreement on which were "the good additions")? RMC is what it is, which is effectively almost exactly the same as RM2, which is what people like me -- RM2 fans -- wanted, our game back in print.
That is exactly the problem. RM2 was revised into RMC to make people like you happy when it could have been revised into something that did not alienate the RMSS crowd but still made you happy. Perhaps you can argue that your RM2 rules must not get a increased page count due to RMSS inspired options (IMHO it does not make sense since some options from RMSS made it into RMC). Anyhow that could easily be solved by having those options in a separate booklet that you could avoid to buy if you can't stand the thought of paying for RMSS material.
My issue was that until RMC, my game was dead, no searchable pdfs, no hard copy, no nothing. My game is RM2. The upshot was that I ended up in the same situation as the RMSS/FRP fans, having a game in searchable, digital form with (at the time) the possibility of ordering hard copy. If that "alienates" the RMSS crowd, then I'm sorry for that, but I just wanted to have a game that I could point players at again.
If they had space to chuck some new options in that they owned -- and, as I say, I don't think a direct lift from Rolemaster Companions then so long as they had all the original game in, I don't care.
I don't mind paying for RMSS, I have a complete set. I just don't like GMing or playing it (which I mostly discovered after buying it, although my completism did kick in).
As for the problem of choosing what options that was good, what is the problem really? Do you argue that RM2 fans are not able to handle having extra options listed? What would the harm be if other game groups liked the RMSS inspired options?
My point was merely that as all additions couldn't be put in, we'd all have additions we'd prefer to see in.
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I think that it is possible to make a new RM edition that include all the essence of RMC and RMSS in it. My greatest problem with RMC is not that I think it is bad system but that I think it miss some of the vital improvements that happened in the transition to RMSS. The irony of it is that RMC is championend as the game of options, but it is still lacking the options needed to make it like RMSS.
Because at least some of those were already published, surely, in Companions and the original authors own those rights?
That argument does not make sense. The options that was used to make RMSS is by nature included in RMSS and thus free to use. There are of course options from RM2 companions that never made into RMSS and those can't be used, but that is clearly a separate issue.
My understanding is that they were, in their Companion form, subject to all the same problems all the other work-for-hire was, that copyright no longer resides with ICE. As to why they were able to incorporate stuff into RMSS that was trailed in RM 2 Companions, I guess they worked something out, or it was different enough, or being embedded in a new complete game was the difference, or something like that.
You can take a few ideas from anywhere and be fine, unless you're careless. Copyright does not protect ideas, only their specific expression. (It's actually easier to take ideas from a game that's quite different, as converting them already gets a good start on expressing it in your own words. A well-worded RM2 rule becomes much harder to restate as an RMC rule. The RMSS versions of the optional material it absorbed was mostly restated (it was core material that tended to be copied verbatim and updated (and occasionally missed something that should have been updated). Also, the copyright issues did not exist when RMSS was created, because those arose because of the reversion of rights during the bankruptcy.
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The idea that matters most is removing the excessive number of charts in the game.
Other mechanics can be invented that maintain the flavor and critical based combat that RM is well liked for. The Chart master moniker must be addressed and killed.
Even the mnv tables can go. They are excessive and belong in compnaions so that those who want them can buy them and use them. A target number system of some sort will solve the table problem. The new system needs to allow all combat info the player needs to be writen on his character sheet.
I have never heard complaints about critical tables. The base game should use the -49 to 120 tables with the more detailed tables available in arms law/companions.
Spell list are fine, though I have heard complaints about blanks on list. No one wants to spend dp for nothing.
If tables MUST be kept, then a page from the old MERP line should be used: remember how all combat tables were available on TWO pages? The absolute most would be a Ten Million Ways to Die approach, and my intuition says that is still to much.
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I don't think that it's so obvious that the charts should go and that, as a result, there'll be a significant market for the game. I mean, sure, if we can really demonstrate that then fair enough but I don't take it as an article of faith. We could, as mentioned elsewhere, have charts (or their absence) as an option without breaking anything.
From my own experience, I found that it wasn't the charts that put people off but rather resolution by (up to) three-digit arithmetic (not a disincentive for me as I love mental arithmetic, but it certainly bothered some of the people with whom I've played).
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From my own experience, I found that it wasn't the charts that put people off but rather resolution by (up to) three-digit arithmetic (not a disincentive for me as I love mental arithmetic, but it certainly bothered some of the people with whom I've played).
I can't say I would be surprised by that, as I've found that to be a medium common complaint myself. A fair percentage of gamers feel like they can't play it at all without a calculator, and seem to be bothered by it.
That said, if things get trimmed down from a d100 paradigm to a d20 paradigm, I personally will probably be uninterested in playing it. One of the major selling points for me has always been the granularity provided by d100s as opposed to d20s. If I'm not going to get that, I don't see any particular reason not to just go ahead and resign myself to The System That Shall Not Be Named(tm), or to just stay with my older books.
Then again, as little money as I ever have to spare for gaming materials, basing marketing decisions on what I think would probably be foolish indeed.
:o
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The question if tables should be kept in core book or not is still an open question. The interesting question is what to put there instead.
I could very well imagine moving the movement table into a companion that cover sports, physical challenges, overcoming traps and similar. The actual table might only be a single page, but there is also need for pages to explain the use of the table. Expanded core rules about tactics in combat might perhaps be worthwhile.
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My issue was that until RMC, my game was dead, no searchable pdfs, no hard copy, no nothing. My game is RM2. The upshot was that I ended up in the same situation as the RMSS/FRP fans, having a game in searchable, digital form with (at the time) the possibility of ordering hard copy. If that "alienates" the RMSS crowd, then I'm sorry for that, but I just wanted to have a game that I could point players at again.
Good for you...as for why it would alienate people like me. Starvation of resources is pretty much the problem. All the time and resources spent on the RMC core books is pretty much lost time to me that meant no new material was produced that I could use (this is true both for RMFRP and HARP fans). If the RMC had resulted in a surge of new business that could have funded new material target at both systems then things would have been different, but IMHO that would required more than just a polish of the old RM2 rules.
No reason to continue arguing...it pretty much boils down to hard feelings about RM2 being dropped in 1995 and hard feelings about RMFRP being dropped in recent years despite promises of this not being the case.
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Is Rolemaster the right name? I know plenty of 30+ folks that won't touch it because they recognize the name......maybe its time to re-name it?
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Is Rolemaster the right name? I know plenty of 30+ folks that won't touch it because they recognize the name......maybe its time to re-name it?
A definite possibility.
RM no longer has the second best selling RPG of all time as a basic intro system to lull players in, which is what merp was. RM needs to become a stand alone system that sheds its ugly baggage in the redesign. A new name may indeed help.
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A redesign... a new name... a new controlling group...? It would really kinda defeat the entire purpose of holding the license.
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Ever heard of HARP? Maybe that's what you are talking about? :D
A redesign... YES
a new name... YES
a new controlling group... at least a new designer (Tim), so YES
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Frankly, I have all I need for my Rolemaster campaigns. I use nearly all books and those numerous articles found on the Guildcompanion - I do not have the need for new material, I do not miss anything really important. RM FRP is pretty complete, offering all my group needs.
Still, it would be quite nice to have some new material, I would buy it anyway, even if I do not really need it. Thus, I would not be utterly and permanently down, should RM FRP be dropped. Mind you, I still would hope for some articles on the Guildcompanion.
I do not know if a new Revision, a new Rolemaster or a completely new system would solve the problem. The authors of any RPG have to compete against countless MMORPG, with many of them being jolly great games - a new game would have to make itself known and attractive. Rolemaster has a name for itself already. Perhaps not with the best reputation, but hey, if I tell somebody about Rolemaster, they have at least an idea.
Plus, there are countless independent RPG for free, just look around the internet and choose the most appealing.
In my opinion, it is very, very important to keep the old products available. Whenever we have new players, we try to convince them to buy material.
Why not offering a platform, where various campaign worlds are offered? Made by players and gamemasters, offered for free, forum included? :-\
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The idea that matters most is removing the excessive number of charts in the game.
One man's excess is another man's robustness. ;D
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The charts are essentially formulaic calculations, done for you. . .
It's assumed people wouldn't prefer to do math on the fly, if they can instead look up on a table instead.
Systems with a lot of constant, on the fly calculating tend to grind time-wise.
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The issue of charts is inevitably going to divide us, I think. Personally I like them a lot. I like cross-referencing the number and not knowing until I find the right number in the chart, and I like that each major weapon has its own. To others, they're some dinosaurish remnant of an old-school past that might be better buried.
However, as Yamma and I have agreed, either the charts or their absence could be an option. I would say that whatever replaces the charts will have to be really simple -- not simple as we might see it, simple as a non-Rolemaster veteran might see it -- if it's to remove some of that "heavyweight and complex" vibe that some people got from Rolemaster.
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I would point out that there were optional methods in the RM2 companions. I don't think any of those caught on. Frankly, I've always found the brilliance of RM to be in the charts. They offer enormous detail without complexity. You do need to be modestly organized, so you have the right charts to hand, but really the need for organized materials is there for most games.
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I always liked having a multitude of weapon charts, and I got into the habit of passing out weapon tables to players before I even got out of the red boxed set in... I don't know, way too long ago, I know that much.
I also love the granularity of damage and healing. If someone doesn't (hasn't?) beat me to it, sooner or later I'll find a way to make that an option for HARP, by the Gods I will.
I found the gazillion and a half variations on the theme of "static maneuver" to be a pain, and pretty much ignored it from the first.
There are many ways you could break down and categorize attack and defense methods, which I think is where the granularity would be most appreciated. If it were up to me I think I'd categorize attacks by the type of attack (thrust, tip slash, reverse stroke, hammer stroke down the center, etc.) than by the type of weapon (bladed, crushing, short, long, elemental, etc.) I mean if you think about it, other than the type of crit, the damage done by a baby mace to the gut, an arrow to the gut and a dagger to the gut are remarkably similar. I say that... similar to a dagger thrust to the gut, a dagger slash to the gut produces markedly different damage.
Damage done by a battleaxe or a flair is pretty much the same, just scaled up. Same goes for the damage comparison between a mangonel, a mortar, a volley of arrows and a fireball.
In the process, you might end up putting actual strategic and tactical decision making into RPG combat too, by deciding what attack styles and defense styles to learn.
Or am I way off base here?
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The sad truth is that The Palladium Fantasy Roleplaying Game did the best job of differentiating melee weapons I've ever seen in an rpg. They gave bonuses to strike, parry, and throw at different rates with a large shield being significantly better for parrying than a sword or axe. I've always wanted something similar to be integrated with weapon speeds and the Rolemaster weapon verses armor tables.
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Agreed on the palladium observation.
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Sadly that was the 1st Ed of Palladium's Fantasy which was before ol'Kev decided everything needed to be a variation of Rifts.
But I agree I would love to see something similar used in RM. While I do like the individual weapon tables if something has to be condensed (abstracted, simplified, what ever word you prefer) I'd rather it be them then the crits, since the crits are what make RM so much fun in combat.
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Crits should stay and be expanded on, imo.
As long as the core rules for resolving attacks are fairly simple and complete, GM's can descide if they want to use all the extra rules for melee or not. I saw few who used weapon speeds and THACO mods by weapon type against armor. Did I hit or not and what was the damage? One reason crits in RM work so well; its the damage we really care about.
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I think having a warrior/thief/semi/mage weapons advancement system could be cool
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hmm, after reading the new announcement on the webpage I'd like to state that this is a classic case in where copyright should be rethought. That's all I want to say about it.
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I would point out that there were optional methods in the RM2 companions. I don't think any of those caught on. Frankly, I've always found the brilliance of RM to be in the charts. They offer enormous detail without complexity. You do need to be modestly organized, so you have the right charts to hand, but really the need for organized materials is there for most games.
I always liked the table in the back of the Companions (when done) that rated the options with thoughts on playability (A = Core, B = Option, H = High powered etc.). Might be useful for any add-on material.
As for upcoming stuff. I'd like to see more setting and expansion material. Given I have RM2/RMC I don't need a ruleset but I do like world content and such.
Ciao,
Old Man