Author Topic: Magent Shadow Assassin spell question  (Read 1433 times)

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Offline Jengada

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Magent Shadow Assassin spell question
« on: August 10, 2022, 01:08:08 PM »
This spell masks the caster from divination and scrying spells. The duration on this says "varies," which seems to be a reference to the fact the divination or scrying could take place any time in the future, after the caster used shadow assassin.
What is unclear is, how long of a period is shadowed this way from the time of casting? Has anyone used this?
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Offline EltonJ

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Re: Magent Shadow Assassin spell question
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2022, 01:30:04 PM »
Well, I guess the spell should have a duration.  "Varies" means that it probably works one time, to block out divination spells.  Why it's level 4 is because it "varies" in duration.  Although it fades after a divination attempt.  Then the caster will have to cast the spell again.

As a game master, however, you have the right to nerf the spell.  Give it a duration, like 1 hour.

Offline damage

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Re: Magent Shadow Assassin spell question
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2022, 07:44:24 PM »
One of my players does indeed use this spell, and its higher-level versions. I'm pretty sure I went with 10 minutes per level for the spell being active.

I certainly didn't go with anything like a one-time use the spell fading after a divination attempt, I read 'varies' as the effects persisting indefinitely into the future whenever divination spells are used on the murder scene. Otherwise any scryer is just going to scry the murder scene twice, and any magent is going to cast the spell as many times as possible to block the next 15 or whatever divination attempts...

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Offline Hurin

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Re: Magent Shadow Assassin spell question
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2022, 08:47:01 PM »
If it helps, the updated version of 'Shadow Assassin' in RMU Spell Law (level 4 spell on Disguise Mastery) has a duration of 1 minute/level.
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Offline Jengada

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Re: Magent Shadow Assassin spell question
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2022, 09:49:41 PM »
It helps immensely! Thanks.
If it helps, the updated version of 'Shadow Assassin' in RMU Spell Law (level 4 spell on Disguise Mastery) has a duration of 1 minute/level.
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Offline Majyk

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Re: Magent Shadow Assassin spell question
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2022, 03:46:30 PM »
I dunno if 1min/lvl is all that long for such a spell.
Invisibility is 24 hours and masks “physicality” from perception until a named condition in its description ends it, so I’d give the same kind of duration for it instead.  That and it’s 4th lvl.

This especially since it would be a rare use for someone scrying anyway.  As said above, GMs can vary this but Semis pay through the nose for spells in the first place so be kind to them, heh.

Offline EltonJ

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Re: Magent Shadow Assassin spell question
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2022, 06:01:38 PM »
I dunno if 1min/lvl is all that long for such a spell.
Invisibility is 24 hours and masks “physicality” from perception until a named condition in its description ends it, so I’d give the same kind of duration for it instead.  That and it’s 4th lvl.

This especially since it would be a rare use for someone scrying anyway.  As said above, GMs can vary this but Semis pay through the nose for spells in the first place so be kind to them, heh.

You're right.  So, how would you approach this, then -- Majyk?

Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Magent Shadow Assassin spell question
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2022, 06:17:22 PM »
Invisibility only covers one sense and is negated by violent action. 1 min/lvl allows you to slip away, kill somebody, and get back to mingling at the party and effectively jams all the security cameras that are figuratively everywhere when you have guys who can observe the past. Even better if you just need to borrow a certain book and might use the same spell again to return it when done, leaving nobody aware that your crime ever took place. These require careful planning, of course, but you probably shouldn't be playing a spy/assassin type if you don't want to plan. You can also mix with invisibility, using it to cover the time between negating your initial invisibility by attacking and when you recast.
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Offline MisterK

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Re: Magent Shadow Assassin spell question
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2022, 11:40:07 PM »
Invisibility only covers one sense and is negated by violent action. 1 min/lvl allows you to slip away, kill somebody, and get back to mingling at the party and effectively jams all the security cameras that are figuratively everywhere when you have guys who can observe the past. Even better if you just need to borrow a certain book and might use the same spell again to return it when done, leaving nobody aware that your crime ever took place. These require careful planning, of course, but you probably shouldn't be playing a spy/assassin type if you don't want to plan. You can also mix with invisibility, using it to cover the time between negating your initial invisibility by attacking and when you recast.
The spell masks against divination and scrying spells. Not against detection spells and any physical senses. I'm not sure it is *that* powerful unless combined with a host of other spells. Unless divination and scrying spells with long time backtrack effect are common police procedures.

Since there is no "II", "III" and other spells to extend duration, I'd go with 10 min/level, which seems fairly standard for the list. The other "fairly standard" duration being 1 hr/level.

Offline pastaav

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Re: Magent Shadow Assassin spell question
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2022, 02:06:21 PM »
My take on the magent spell is that it does not have a fixed duration because it covers the assassination attempt and not a specific time period. The actual masked time period is determined by how long time is needed to satisfy the shadow/unseen/false assassin effect. The balancing factor is that the spell is strictly limited to assassinations so you cannot use it to for instance steal a book...unless you manage to also perform an assassination while you steal the book.
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Offline MisterK

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Re: Magent Shadow Assassin spell question
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2022, 12:05:05 AM »
My take on the magent spell is that it does not have a fixed duration because it covers the assassination attempt and not a specific time period. The actual masked time period is determined by how long time is needed to satisfy the shadow/unseen/false assassin effect. The balancing factor is that the spell is strictly limited to assassinations so you cannot use it to for instance steal a book...unless you manage to also perform an assassination while you steal the book.
Where have you seen that the spell effects are limited to assassinations ? The spell text certainly contains no such limitation, it just says "all deeds".

Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Magent Shadow Assassin spell question
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2022, 03:54:42 PM »
Death's Delving is an 18th level spell, but it is on an Open list and would typically be cast under circumstances where a magic ritual would be practical. Death's Tale is on a Base list, but only 6th level. Death's Memory is another Open list spell, at 16th level. These are just spells that explicitly show someone's killer. There are other forms of retrosurveillance. If you want to get away with murder in the long run, you really want to scramble all the virtual video cameras that other spell-casters can put there retroactively.
Note that in RMU, Shadow Assassin doesn't help against the Bard's The Reaper's Tale spell, since it doesn't rely on visuals. The higher-level Unknown Assassin spell will protect against this as well.
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Offline pastaav

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Re: Magent Shadow Assassin spell question
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2022, 01:03:14 AM »
Where have you seen that the spell effects are limited to assassinations ? The spell text certainly contains no such limitation, it just says "all deeds".

The name of the spells is very clear if you ask me.
/Pa Staav

Offline MisterK

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Re: Magent Shadow Assassin spell question
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2022, 03:29:31 AM »
Where have you seen that the spell effects are limited to assassinations ? The spell text certainly contains no such limitation, it just says "all deeds".

The name of the spells is very clear if you ask me.
Spell name does not define intent. Description text does, and the description text only means that "deeds" are covered by the spell - for all we know, it could be useful if someone wants privacy when doing their... business. The list is called "Disguise Mastery" and provides obfuscation/illusion spells - Assigning a specific intent goes against 'freedom of use' of the spells within the technical parameters.

There could be one way the "varies" duration makes sense, and it is if there is an actual tangible objective involved - killing X, stealing Y, spying on Z, or whatever - and all actions pertaining to that objective are covered by the spell. But it makes it a bit too powerful to my personal tastes, as well as very difficult to judge properly (when the Magent travels to the place where he plans to do the deed, are all actions during the travel covered by the spell ? If not, which ones are ?). I'd rather assign a duration, and given the other spells on the list, 10 min/L seems in line with the overall intent.

Offline EltonJ

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Re: Magent Shadow Assassin spell question
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2022, 10:52:30 AM »
It's intent is to hide a deed in the shadows when someone uses scrying on you.  The duration varies because it's to obscure the deed in shadows when someone uses scrying.  The spell covers any deed the magent does when he doesn't want to be seen.

Offline pastaav

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Re: Magent Shadow Assassin spell question
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2022, 02:00:28 PM »
Basically, this thread is talking about nerfing the duration of the time the spell can cover so you always can uncover who the assassin is by backtracking and casting the spell again until you see the identity. Some spells like Death's Tale will not work with backtracking, but the Magent must assume that if the target is high profile enough they will find spell users that can uncover his identity.

Not being able to protect the Magent's identity is by any measure a serious weakening of the Magent in his core activity...if you rule that the spells are not limited to assassination but can be used for any actions then the duration limit is probably needed to not make the spell too overpowered. The downside of allowing it to apply to any action is that having limited protection from scrying will mean the Magent is the only sane choice for all agent action and a number of other professions are suddenly quite bad choices for doing agent stuff.

I would argue having the Magent with a monopoly on getting away with assassination and letting the Dabbler or similar get the equivalent spell to cover non-assassination actions seems like a much better game design than making Magent able to perform any subterfuge task with scrying protection. In RMU they ruled that the missing duration was the typo while I would argue the better interpretation of the older editions is the typo is that the word assassination is missing from the spell description.
/Pa Staav

Offline MisterK

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Re: Magent Shadow Assassin spell question
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2022, 01:14:22 AM »
The thing is, I don't believe assassination is the Magent's core activity. Being an agent is, which includes recon, intelligence gathering, stealing, sabotage... and assassination. One of the class lists deals with assassination (and can be used for anything else, really - a study patsy / create evidence combo can work for a theft as well as for an assassination), but the others are not specific.

From that, I infer that the Magent spells should be non-specific in their intent except for when the technical aspects are obviously specific - such as Open Ambush, Targeting and Well-Aimed Attack, which are combat-enhancing spells and, as such, specifically deal with combat activities.

Shadow Assassin is not explicit in which actions it should cover by its description, so the intent is that it covers any "deed", regardless of what it is - if the Magent wants to cast this spell constantly to escape divination when going about his daily routine and has power points for that, they are welcome to it. However, since a blanket scrying block spell without implicit or explicit duration would obviously be overpowered, we have to
- either assume the duration is indeed "varies" and the issue is with the scope, in which case we have to update the description to indicate that it covers one "deed" and only covers the actions that are directly linked to that "deed". The result is a spell that is difficult to ascertain and very much open to conflicting interpretations, but probably fairly true to the original intent of the author.
- or assume that it can cover any activities, but then, must be limited in time. I then consider the other spells on the list, which are mostly 10 min/Level (with a few being 1 hour/Level) and infer that 10 min/Level would probably be a fair duration. The spell becomes much easier to referee, even if it is probably a bit more removed from the original intent.

But I would not lock the Magent into an "assassin only" role just because of one poorly chosen word in a single spell description where it's actual role is being an agent that is really difficult to uncover.

As for the Dabbler, its main role is that of a burglar and con man - probably much more on the wrong side of the law than the Magent, and probably much less liable to leave corpses behind them as well. But I can agree with you one one point: the Dabbler lists are sometimes underwhelming and could stand to be improved in a few ways, notably in the ability to remove physical evidence of his crimes.

Offline pastaav

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Re: Magent Shadow Assassin spell question
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2022, 04:36:36 PM »
I have never had any trouble in my game to referee the use of the spell. The players say they use spell X to discover who the assassin is and the answer is "nope, you only see a shadow/nothing". If the players suggest that they try to backtrack to get around the shadow spell I point out that it won't work against a Magent spell since these actively counter attempts to uncover who the assassin is. If they try to suggest they look at secondary evidence to get clues about the identity of the assassin despite the magic I answer that it is magic and will also cover any such clue.

Of course, they are still free to try to backtrack if they believe it was another spell that provided the shadow/invisibility.

At the end of the day limiting the duration does not matter for what you as GM must do when you provide an answer to the player using the spell. The judgment call about what information to reveal remains the same, but with the time limit, the players can defeat the spell by backtracking and casting the spell again.  This is a good discussion, but I think we have exhausted the topic by now.
/Pa Staav

Offline Majyk

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Re: Magent Shadow Assassin spell question
« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2022, 02:39:09 AM »
For specific spells that counter others when it comes to scrying, I allowed an RR vs the original spell to do so. 

However, the defensive spell gets a bump of x5 to its effective level to help keep the mystery alive(and not auto-foil GM plots, which is more often when these spells are employed, LOL!) but that still doesn’t keep them secret forever. 

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Offline Hurin

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Re: Magent Shadow Assassin spell question
« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2022, 10:15:41 AM »
I agree with MisterK that the RAW does not limit the spell to Assassination, but I also see Pastaav's point that any scryers could just effectively nullify the effect by rolling back their scrying to the time before the spell was cast to identify the killer. It might take the scryers a bit of time to focus on the right location, so that is a bit of a limitation (especially if the scryers are trying to start a pursuit of the target), but not maybe too significant of one.

Given those parameters, perhaps increasing the duration to 10 minutes/level might be worth considering. That long duration might prevent scryers from identifying the assassin, especially if we considered one 'deed' that is 'shadowed' is the assassin getting to the scene of the crime (thus the scryers would not know where to look for the assassin, especially if s/he had blended into the crowd on his way to the scene).
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