Topic: Shadow World Player Guide

[vroomfogle]

Hello all,

As some of you may have read, Nicholas from The Guild Companion announced that there was a Shadow World Player Guide in the works.   I will be the 'author' of that work, although I use the term author in a loose sense since most, if not all, of the work is compiling information from existing sources.    Many of you aware of the Player Guides I have on my website (vroomfogle.com, top right hand corner), which will be a starting point but I will be completely revisiting everything.  Also rest assured that Terry will be closely involved with this project.

The Player Guide will be based on only canon material (although it's likely that many sources won't have any impact on a Player Guide).   Master canon list:
- Written by Terry: Atlases, Atlas Addendum, Powers of Light & Dark, Jaiman, Haalkitaine, Cloudlords of Tanara, Xa-ar, The Iron Wind, Emer, Emer I, Emer II, Eidolon, Vog Mur, the Shadowstone chronicles, The Grand Campaign, Curse of the White Wood, Dagger of Jade, Watchtowers of U-Lyshak, Temple of the Three (from TGA1), and Rose Petals and Snow Lions (from TGA2).
- Accepted by Terry: Norek, Quellbourne

Now it is not normal to discuss projects under development, however in this case I felt the product was a bit of a different beast.   The Player Guides are for players, but ultimately a tool for SW GM's.   I want the player guide to be endorsed by GMs and be useful in their own campaigns.   Therefore I need to be careful about what is considered "Player" information.  There are a few current threads here discussing this very idea and I am reading and paying attention to those carefully.   Now this is a PLAYER guide, not a Local Populace guide.   A local populace guide of SW would no doubt be very short.

The guides are to include a modicum amount of information that is intended to impart an overview of information to the players.  It will no doubt include information that some PC's would not have (for instance, info on Emer when they are from Jaiman, or information on some history when none is known), and as such the Guide will still require players to be able to separate Player Knowledge from Character Knowledge.  But at the same time the Guide should not give away any secrets, or even any hints.   It should give a healthy dose of Shadow World flavor and might also serve as a player reference manual.

Therefore, I would like to solicit (caveats below) opinions on the type of information you, as GM's and to a lesser extent players, would like to see in a Player Guide.  I would like to include as many diagrams and maps as possible to help convey information concisely.   Here are things to think about:
- What types of information do you think are crucial for your players to have?
- What are the types of things you would not like your players to have? 
- Regarding maps, what level of detail should players have?
- What about important groups of note.  Which ones are known about?  Navigators? Loremasters?  Dragonlords?  Are they myths?   Do players know of their existence?
- Are any details of the First or Second Era known?
- What past civilizations should be contained in the Guide?
- How should Gods be presented without clearly separating them into "Good" and "Evil" (Orhan vs Charon).

That being said, here are the caveats:
- I cannot and will not promise anything as to the contents of the Guide.  Any discussion on these boards should not be taken as an indication that something will be included, or not be included.   Even if it sounds like I endorse something is no guarantee of what will be in the final publication.
- There is no ETA.  Please do not ask for when this might be done.  I currently do not know.   I would like to get this done in a timely manner, but I'm busy and doing this right will take time.


I appreciate any input and feedback you may all provide.  I want this to ultimately be a useful tool for as many of you Shadow World fans out there as I can.

- V

[TomOBedlam]

Regarding Gods - What about presenting information about them in the following format:
- What to believers believe? No one believes that his god is Evil, so what do they believe?
- What to believers think about other gods?

It's a bit like the format used by White Wolf in about all of their products. Vampire clans described how they interact.

[Hurin]

As for getting out of the conundrum of presenting gods as good or evil: why not just give an account of each god from his/her perspective? I am assuming even evil gods would not consider themselves evil (Satan, if he existed, would probably consider himself just misunderstood and badly mistreated), or at least they would not say such to their followers. So write up the descriptions as if it were from that god's perspective. Klysus might say that He is a great protector of the people of Lankanok, for example, and as long as people keep their faith with Him, and keep making the sacrifices that He demands of them, they will be His chosen people and eternally triumphant over their enemies.

You could do the same with the followers of the Unlife. They have a whole rhetoric of anti-loremaster stock phrases and slogans, obviously; they could say that all the priests Arnak want to bring eternal life (i.e. as undead) to all the people of Kulthea, but that the evil loremasters want to hold everyone back from enjoying eternal bliss so that the Loremasters can continue to treat the people as their own fearful puppets.

As for characters' awareness of history and politics, I would like to see most player characters having an understanding of the Loremasters, the Navigators and maybe a few of the Dragonlords (say, Oran and Sulthon, if they were on Jaiman). Most educated people on Kulthea should have a basic understanding of the timeline of the world (though there may be different dating systems--in Zor, for example, you could argue that the destruction of the Kingdom is the most significant historical event, as it ushered in a new age), and a more detailed understanding of the timeline as it applies to their particular era. Scholars who had been to Nomikos or attended the Gryphon College would have a much more detailed understanding.

This sounds like a great project! I'm really interested to see how it turns out, as I am about to start one or possibly even two new campaigns in Kulthea.

Good Luck!

[Guillaume]

My own answer to these questions has been hiding somewhere in the vault for a while.   

You can hereby, use and abuse of the informations it contains.
( and develop them, it's not as if a 2/3 pages 'player handout' could come near to competing to a real Player Guide. )

[markc]

 I just wanted to chime in and wish you good luck on the project.

MDC

[mathhatt]

This is an interesting project, and I think it would be a most useful document if it gets done.

I've written my own world guide for my players a few years back. You could have a look although it is written in french, to see what kind of information I've included.  http://mathhatt.free.fr/jdr/rm/sw/docs/shadowworld.pdf
http://mathhatt.free.fr/jdr/rm/sw/docs/shadow%20world%20world%20guide.pdf

Basically I've included more information than what the characters would know, just for the players to have an overview and a feel of the setting. Although I've also written some little documents to illustrate what exactly their characters would know and think of specific subjects, depending on their specific cultures and education. Usually my players create well educated and knowledgeable characters, living in civilized places, usually spell users (or semi-spell users) with at least some basic knowledge about secret organizations and stuff like that, even if they don't have all the details.

Basically my world guide contains the following :

- informations about the solar system, planets and moons. Maybe a little more info that what normal characters would know about, but it is given for the players to get a more precise feeling of the setting, with visual illustrations of the moons and relative sizes. Now that I think of it, the work of kmanktelow (see this thread : http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=7028.60) should be used here.

- maps and short descriptions for the whold western hemisphere (let the east one be clouded in mystery and legends) as well as more precise maps for the two main continents Emer and Jaiman.

- a listing and short descriptions of peoples/races/cultures and technological levels, to give the players a sense of the variety of places/cultures/countries, with some very low tech, some almost renaissance...

- a part about the magic, what is the source of the magic (Essaence), the various forms of channeling/essence/mentalism and pure Essaence (arcane). As my players almost create magic users they know about the various colors of magic, stuff like that.

- notes about powers like loremasters, navigators, and less known evil cults and dragonlords (not too much details, just so they know they exist, but let their motivations, exact numbers etc. in the mist).

- a short history of 1st, 2nd and third era. Here again, more than most of the characters would actually know, but for the players to get a sense of the very ancient history of Kulthea. No very secret events should be disclosed here, but indications that there was a very powerful Essaence-using race (Kta'viiri) with high technological level, long ago, that is now completely extinct (or is it really ?) but whose remnants can still be found in some places.

- finally a note on religions and gods, with the pantheon of both moons, some legends and beliefs about what they want, what they do, where they are. More about the specific cults and religions, their motivations.

[Witchking20k]

I'm a fan of writing a players guide that inspires players to play, not just provide info.  A few well placed short stories and some good art would go a long way.

[RandalThor]

I'm a fan of writing a players guide that inspires players to play, not just provide info.  A few well placed short stories and some good art would go a long way.

I could not agree more.

[dutch206]

My "Player's Version of the Emer Timeline" is kicking around the vault somewhere.  Feel free to use and abuse it.

[Terry K. Amthor]

I'm a fan of writing a players guide that inspires players to play, not just provide info.  A few well placed short stories and some good art would go a long way.

THose would be fun to write...

[Elrik]

Following the vain of White Wolf and what I have been reading above... If the book was written as a person living in the Shadow World, you could convey a great deal of information. For example, everyone take on a Loremaster/scribe/nosey SOB that has written information down and then a 3rd body takes the information and compiles it.

That way we have different "agents" that can relay information. Agents could get a page or more to express their information. After that there could be the technical information; village/city/kingdom stats and the like.

I always liked that approach for a Players manual or guild. I couldn't stand it as a Rule book. It immerses the players in right away, everyone involved gets to be creative as well as informative, sharing quick adventures, details of locations, maps of their adventures, maps of cities, cool places to visit, locations that are considered dangerous, explain that a simple education graph of what people may know... that could be hard, and finally a dress style for regions, favoured weapons and more. This could be overkill or even not enough for some.

... stupid work! Gets in the way of the important things... grumble grumble grumble


 

[dutch206]

"real life" happens. 

[Elrik]

It always seems to work that way - nothing and then everything!!! NOW NOW NOW!!!

I have never written a players manual, I've done a game, horrible horrible, and all sorts of White Papers, user manuals for technology but I am not sure how to work on this one.

My Lame Ideas but not totally in order.

Intro - By Terry - hint hint hint =-)
World Overview (Short history)
Organizations (Loremasters and the other bad guys)
Kingdoms (Brief - more a who's who)
General Social standings - (Education is king here)
Explanation of Magic - I doubt the characters know that the Earth Wardens Separated the teaching of magic.
Equipment list - What to take-because most have no clue and thing they are going to the local store.
Explanation of Money. Different locations have different Money.
Social Graces - More a wish list, but PC's have to know their place.
Legends - maybe some self motivating adventure ideas. I haven't had a party in a long time that took it upon themselves to look for something.
Maps! - Cool places and wonder, explore and take control of!

There is already a tonne of ideas out there. How do we start??

I have a graphics guy that says he will help with the layout if you guys want to sexy it up.

[vroomfogle]

There is already a tonne of ideas out there. How do we start??

I have a graphics guy that says he will help with the layout if you guys want to sexy it up.

Elrik,  this project is to be a product that I'm doing for the Guild Companion.   Of course, community work on Shadow World is always welcome and anyone is free to do it, but I cannot guarantee that anything done will be included in this Player Guide.


Onto another issue - The Unlife
Like others, I prefer a more hazy line between good and evil, but then there is the Unlife.  Is the force of the Unlife that you GM's out there specifically lay out for the players?   Is the Unlife something that should be explicitly defined.   

In other words I'm interested what you all think about the info presented in Part XIV of the 3rd edition Atlas. (Part IX 4th edition).  Is this material something that you think would be presented to the players.  Specifically the section "Good and Evil" that defines what Unlife is.

[Elrik]

Sorry... my enthusiasm got the best of me.  =-)

My long winded answer.

Unlife: If you look long enough into the void the void begins to look back through you - Nietzsche
It is rare that my players are aware of the Unlife at the start of their career. I have had games go on for some time and the players still had no idea what the Unlife was beyond hear say and legend. In most cases I distort the legends a bit so that they carry some truth, but less historical fact.

City folk have an idea of legends, a touch of history, but they are only aware of stories that have been strentch and pulled and rebranded to make more sense to those young minds starting to learn. Most people don't want to believe that these things anyways.

The common city folk learn to be a practical lot, protected from the Darkness by walls, and constantly having their betters tell them that peasant tales are just superstitious tales. Eventually it sinks in, time retells the truth and stories become the facts of history. 

As you wonder away from cities, superstitious starts to trump practical thinking. Legends become fact and history may carry more truth then fancy. Still, every story has it's own legs. Communitys on the edge of the Unlife may see it everyday, listen to it whisper and think it something else completely. Tales of the Fey, changeling, dark spirits even dark races permeate the threads that make up these peoples lives. Once these stories where a warning, now these warnings have become tall tales.

Few start off knowing what the Iron Wind is. More know it by other names; Myth, legend, tall tales, Boogieman. As people grow, and travel, they learn a thing, some of those people put several thing together and they start to piece together a puzzle. Every so often they gain some clear incite, usually they discover more questions. As they travel, they find more to add to their puzzle, and find more questions. Yet, in the darkness there is a shiver and something begins to investigate the characters.

Elrik Notes: The Unlife should not be fully defined. Players shouldn't even have a clue until something comes along to "give" them a clue.

[kmanktelow]

Hi, Vroomfogle, et al,

I agree with Elrik, regarding the amount and accuracy of information people would have, from different backgrounds. In many cases, they would have conflicting information- along the lines of "Eh? Well, my Dad always told me that <insert erroneous fact here>!"

There's something really satisfying sometimes about having the players barking completely up the wrong tree, then seeing their faces when they realise that some information that they had was completely wrong. It tends to make them a bit more cautious, afterwards.

I remember one time, that after they'd been arrested in some small barony, that the local ruler sent them to deal with an Evil Sorcerer and recover a magic sword, so that the charges against them would be dropped.

Off they trotted, filled with the desire to rid the land of Evil...

It turned out, that the 'Evil Sorcerer' was actually a powerful Alchemist, whom the Baron had commissioned to make the sword- but then the Baron had refused to pay for it. Ergo: the Alchemist refused to give it to him- and the Baron was reduced to trying to coerce gormless Adventurers into stealing it for him.

Yeah, I could be a really sneaky, devious swine sometimes, when I GMed.

Difficult, to provide dis-information in a player guide, but it would be nice to see a 'rumours' section, to do the same thing.

All the Best,

Kevin.

[vroomfogle]

Copying thrud's post to here as more suggestion for the Player Guide

Maybe this has been covered before but here it goes...
I thought it would be nice with a thread where you could make a whishlist for future SW material.
I'll go first:
- A detailed section on races and where they can be found.
   "I want to play an elf, where do they live?"
   "I want to play an elf, what kind of clothes do I wear?"
   "I want to play an elf, what weapons can I choose from? Which tribes use what weapons?"
- An in depth section on languages.
   "I want to play an elf, what languages do I speak?"
   "I want to play an elf, how many ranks do I get in my languages?"
- A detailed listing on live, dead and magical languages and where they are/were spoken and by who
   "I am the mighty wizard of the western mountain range and I want to study some cool ancient languages, what languages are there?

There are bits and pieces all over the place but it should be presented in one place where it's easy to understand.
My suggestion alone could provide enough material for a source book if you let it.

[Witchking20k]

The players guide(s) writen for Earthdawn were awsome.  They had the races broken down in a series of books and a book called the Adepts way.  You could read a few pages about Elves then flip to the Swordmaster and kinda meld the two.....

[Witchking20k]

How about some SW specific TPs.....ie.

Sarnak Mercenary, Warlock from Itanis, Laan Explorer......

[Nejira]

why not just give an account of each god from his/her perspective

I like Hurin?s suggestion, and like to second it. Maybe also include some information about the priesthoods, holidays, dogma, and so forth about each "religion" as well.

Details on what is commonly known, and what people?s approach to the subject is. Loremasters, Navigators, Unlife, etc, etc, etc. lots of "secrets" in SW but just how secret are they to the common man?

Other than that, thrud pretty much sums up my feelings. I like a player?s guide thats more a "how to play a character in this setting" than "how to get most out of your elf" guide. A guide that has some game info but is mostly focused on the roleplaying aspect.